Transporting by rail

[Pat Holscher]

[Couvi]

Notice that several of the participants are carrying revolvers.

I have seen more good photographs of the M1902 Battery Wagon on this forum in the last two weeks that I saw the entire time I was a Field Artillery Curator!

[Rick Throckmorton]

Couvi,
You're right good pics. I think this last batch pre-dates the issue of the Colt 1911 pistols, hence the revolvers. Notice also that the cartridge belts the revolvers are hanging on are NOT the typical cartridge belts for the Springfield rifles, but the cartridge belts specifically for the revolvers. These belts had the pockets for ammunition similar to the rifle cartridge belts, but the pockets were much more shallow for revolver cartridges only. Photos showing these belts in use are few.
Rick T.

[Pat Holscher]

Notice that several of the participants are carrying revolvers.

I have seen more good photographs of the M1902 Battery Wagon on this forum in the last two weeks that I saw the entire time I was a Field Artillery Curator!

Are these all M1902 Battery Wagons? I'm not at all familiar with the types and varieties of Army wagons.

[Pat Holscher]

In these ones, note the men in bowler hats. It's not relevant to anything, but it's sort of interesting to see it show up. Now, if you appeared somewhere in a bowler people would assume that you were in some sort of costume. Here, for some reason, two men wearing bowlers and suits are watching wagons be unloaded from flat cars.

[Pat Holscher]

Note the Bull Durham and Budweiser advertising in the background.

[Philip S]

If the originals have enough resolution, it may be possible to pick an approximate date from inspection dates on the flat cars.

[Pat Holscher]

If the originals have enough resolution, it may be possible to pick an approximate date from inspection dates on the flat cars.

Philip, where would that appear?

On these photos, I think they're from two different time periods, based on the hats. Some of the soldier have Montana Peak, M1911 type campaign hats, and some have the prior pattern. But I don't see them being mixed in the photos.

I could well be incorrect, however. They're all from the 1910s somewhere, more or less, but there's a lot of room in there.

[Couvi]

This Battery Wagon, M1902, carried oil cans, carpenter’s set, wheelwright’s set, saddler’s set, spare harness, spare leather, spare horseshoes, spare coal, scythes to cut forage, etc., and obviously the spare wheels. It is hinged across the milled, parallel with the axle and opens from either end. There are compartments for the various tool sets, harness, leather, etc. It was operated by the maintenance section.



The vehicle in front, which is built very similar to a limber, but the box opens from the top, carried the traveling forge, ready supply of coal, and the farrier’s tool set.



A similar vehicle, whose box also opened from the top, pulled an instrument cart that contained communications equipment. Another pulled a battery reel, which paid out and retrieved wire.

All the artillery rolling stock had the same tongues, wheels and similar common vehicular components to simplify the supply process.

Note in one of the photographs what appears to be a covered van-type wagon. I am not certain what that is. The Battery Commander’s Detail, rode in an ambulance, but this has the look of a vehicle with a permanent top. In France they were called a ‘fourgon’ and were used extensively by the American Army like light trucks are today. I wasn’t aware they were used in the States. Someone with a 1916 Quartermaster Manual may be able to clarify this.

[Philip S]

If the originals have enough resolution, it may be possible to pick an approximate date from inspection dates on the flat cars.

Philip, where would that appear?

They would be in small letters on the side of the cars. I am thinking specifically of brake inspection dates and possibly car building dates (which would at least establish an earliest possible date).

[Couvi]

The wagon on the left in the first photograph is a standard Escort Wagon, the Deuce and a Half of the first forty years of the 20th Century; and is equipped with canvas bows and the slanted sideboards with rounded corners. The function of the sideboards was to shake the load towards the center of the wagon. It is pulled by two pairs of mules.

The second wagon appears to have been modified by the addition of higher sideboards.

The wagon at the right is, I believe, a Light Spring Wagon and would have been used much as a pick-up truck is used today. It is not an artillery specific vehicle and I do not know what its function would be in this battery. It is pulled by one pair of mules or horses.



The bottom photograph shows several of the escort wagons with the additional sideboards.



These are driven from a seat, so they are the Escort Wagon, as opposed to the Army Wagon, on which the driver rides the near wheeler of a team of three pairs of mules. The Army Wagon should have been out of service by the time this photograph was taken.

[Pat Holscher]

Off loading in China.

[epona]

How would transpotation like that effect the horse's preformance in battle? Would it or is the horse used to it?

[Pat Holscher]

How would transpotation like that effect the horse's preformance in battle? Would it or is the horse used to it?

The mode of transportation itself probably didn't greatly impact the horse's fitness. The distance might, as a long trip would this confined would not be a good thing.

Otherwise, it probably isn't greatly different for the horse than riding in a modern horse trailer.

[Dpuckey]

They would be much fitter than riding there.

A train track is always on a straight or decent curve, by their very nature trains cannot turn sharp corners! unlike horse lorries. Trains also tend to start and stop fairly steadily, hence the strain for a given distance may be less than by road. Have seen horses moved in lorries without partitiond here in UK, generally farmers using their cattle lorry to go hunting, horses seem to get along fine with it, although partitions would be strongly recommended if any horses argue with each other, also very handy in case of any sudden braking!
The last time that we were able to move horses by rail on the UK rail network was Prince Charles' Investiture as Prince of Wales, have seen this quoted as the last time that British Army horses moved by rail, after that British Rail got rid of the rolling stock. It once used to be common for horses to go hunting by rail on specaiily lain on trains. Wonder if any of the rail preservation groups has any horse carriages?

[Pat Holscher]

The last time that we were able to move horses by rail on the UK rail network was Prince Charles' Investiture as Prince of Wales, have seen this quoted as the last time that British Army horses moved by rail, after that British Rail got rid of the rolling stock. It once used to be common for horses to go hunting by rail on specially lain on trains. Wonder if any of the rail preservation groups has any horse carriages?

That's very interesting. I wouldn't have thought that the British Army would have stock railroad cars that late. And moving hunting horses by rail surprises me.

The horses in the photo are in some sort of open topped cars. I'm not familiar with cars of this type and what they are. They might not have been designed for stock at all, and perhaps were just pressed into that use, but I wouldn't think open topped cars truly ideal. I'd guess that horses were usually moved with conventional stock cars in most places. Photos of the 115th in the 30s show that sort of car in use for that purpose. Certainly the 40 and 8 gives us one example of a car that was used in Europe.

I've never considered the topic of civilian riding horses being moved by rail. Was that common?

[John Tremelling]

In addition to my interest in horses, Military horses in general, and British Yeomanry in particular, I play with toy trains, some people explain it as modelling, I do it to play with my grandchildren.

However, I do like to model trains and scenery as opposed to just watching trains chase each other on a circle, and have for some time had an interest in putting together a model of a British Great War Troop train, certainly Cavalry, i.e. with horse transport, but possibly even Artillery, with guns on flatcars.

I find the photo fascinating, thanks,

I can see no reason why this method would not have been used for short journeys in UK, especially during the occasional periods of temperate weather. I have also seen photos of horses being detrained from british cattle trucks on the continent. However my reason for posting this 'confession' here, I would be interested in any photos which anyone have and are willing to share of military horse train transport, or horse drawn guns on the move, any nationality but particularly British. Purely for my grandchildren you understand.

As David said, in UK horses were regularly moved by rail for hunting, and about the country for racing as well, when horse wagons included accomodation for grooms and jockeys.

Thanks,

John T

[Pat Holscher]

In addition to my interest in horses, Military horses in general, and British Yeomanry in particular, I play with toy trains, some people explain it as modelling, I do it to play with my grandchildren.

However, I do like to model trains and scenery as opposed to just watching trains chase each other on a circle, and have for some time had an interest in putting together a model of a British Great War Troop train, certainly Cavalry, i.e. with horse transport, but possibly even Artillery, with guns on flatcars.

I find the photo fascinating, thanks,

I can see no reason why this method would not have been used for short journeys in UK, especially during the occasional periods of temperate weather. I have also seen photos of horses being detrained from british cattle trucks on the continent. However my reason for posting this 'confession' here, I would be interested in any photos which anyone have and are willing to share of military horse train transport, or horse drawn guns on the move, any nationality but particularly British. Purely for my grandchildren you understand.

As David said, in UK horses were regularly moved by rail for hunting, and about the country for racing as well, when horse wagons included accomodation for grooms and jockeys.

Thanks,

John T

I have some really neat photos of large numbers of horse being offloaded from trains, in the field, off the Union Pacific between Laramie and Cheyenne, Wyoming. I'll have to hunt them up, but they're neat.

At least two other folks here (I being one) are fans of trains too. I don't know much about them, but find them very interesting, and have since I was a little kid. It seems shocking now, and they would never allow it, but when I was a little boy one of the things I used to beg my father to do, and which he would then to do with me, is go down to our then very inactive rail yard and look for railroad spikes.

[Couvi]

In addition to my interest in horses, Military horses in general, and British Yeomanry in particular, I play with toy trains, some people explain it as modelling, I do it to play with my grandchildren.

However, I do like to model trains and scenery as opposed to just watching trains chase each other on a circle, and have for some time had an interest in putting together a model of a British Great War Troop train, certainly Cavalry, i.e. with horse transport, but possibly even Artillery, with guns on flatcars.

I find the photo fascinating, thanks,

I can see no reason why this method would not have been used for short journeys in UK, especially during the occasional periods of temperate weather. I have also seen photos of horses being detrained from british cattle trucks on the continent. However my reason for posting this 'confession' here, I would be interested in any photos which anyone have and are willing to share of military horse train transport, or horse drawn guns on the move, any nationality but particularly British. Purely for my grandchildren you understand.

As David said, in UK horses were regularly moved by rail for hunting, and about the country for racing as well, when horse wagons included accomodation for grooms and jockeys.

Thanks,

John T

John,

Have your grandchildren search the Robert Runyon Collection: http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/
Search ‘Railroad:’

Fort Brown, cannon loaded on train
http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00452.JPG

[John Tremelling]

Thanks Pat and Couvi.

John T