Armeesattel 25

[Reiter]

Wow Jan, cool that you share with us the pictures of your bag! Seems to be in very good condition.

Here I have a War-photograph of the "Beschlagzeugtasche":

476 Reiterschwadron H.jpg (64.45 KiB) Viewed 42606 times

Horrido!

Nicole

[Pat Holscher]

Bump.

[agilmour]

Hello, I am new to this group & have what appears to be a model 25 saddle, I had a few questions I was hoping someone here might have the answers to: First, the stamps embossed into the rear seat- there are 2 #1's on each side of the top portion, but there are also the initials 'bmd' with a large #4 underneath on the right side, so I'm confused as to size (is it a 4 or a 1?). Also, under the Eagle insignia on the left side is stamped 'W&A 98'. This saddle was supposedly brought to the States by a GI who was with the troops who 'liberated' the Vienna Riding School. I was particularly interested in the woven girth, as a hand -weaver I have been trying to reverse-engineer it's beautiful & fascinating structure & it so far has me baffled, does anyone have any info on where & how these were made? It is a beautiful piece of workmanship- the entire saddle is beautifully made as I'm sure everyone knows. Thanks in advance for any info!

Cheers- Anne

[tmarsh]

Anne, the Germans had a unique system that was coded for marking the manufactor of their war equipment in WW2. The BMD was the maker of the item and the other stamp with the eagle and number on it was the number of a cetrtain inspector. Your saddle was made in Nuremberg by a Max G. Muller That liveat Forsthofstrasse 37. How interesting in knowing who manaufactor the saddle so many years ago. The tree size is the number on the cantle of the tree and the saddle seat may have been switched from another saddle. Best regards Tom

[agilmour]

Hi Tom- Thanks so much for the quick reply & being willing to share your knowledge! I'm still a little confused- the #1 & the #4 are stamped on the same piece of leather on the cantle, so I'm guessing there was no switching involved & the 4 is the makers # & the 1 is the size (I hope!- I bought it for trail riding & I am not a large woman so a #1 seems like the right size for me... I'm more involved with horses & it's practical uses than military history, I have to admit...) -have I interpreted your answer correctly? I hope so... & you are right, it is very cool to know who made it & where, I so admire the craftsmanship...

[tmarsh]

What number is stamped on the metal part of the back cantle? This is the size of the tree. They would also have stamped the year of manufactor. Is this 41? Tom

[agilmour]

The stamp on the metal part is a 1 (Yay!) but I can't see any other numbers on it- there are initials, insignias & the number '42' stamped to both stirrup straps, though. I was told not to use the stirrups & straps as they are rare & hard to find (I was in fact told not to use this saddle at all because it is in such good condition & should be kept that way) But I see lots of them in use on this site, any thoughts on that, & is there any other place I could look for the year of manufacture? Thanks again for answering all my questions, I really appreciate the information.

[tmarsh]

They would have maybe stamped the cantle with two numbers indicating the year. There would be the 3 letter code, the inspectors stamp, the eagle and the swastika stamp, the seat size and last the year of manufactor. Do what you want with the saddle. If you ride with it, you should replace the girth straps and stirrup straps. The girth straps are applied with a rawhide tie and can easy be removed and then attached if needed to be in original condition. I have 2 that I use to ride with and find it an ok saddle. The design, and the ease that it comes apart amazes me. Tom

[Todd]

Here's is a photo study I did ages ago when I had an armesattel - it came with the original breastcollar. Not the greatest condition.

http://www.militaryhorse.org/studies/armesattel/

As I recall, this was made before the "codes" were implemented, and marked with a maker in Berlin, year date stamp of 1928.

[agilmour]

Many thanks Tom & Todd- your info has answered all my questions, the restoration photos are great, too!
I very much appreciate the responses & knowledge-sharing.
Cheers- Anne

[Lookas]

I look at this study of armeesattel, but i cant see larger images:( What i do wrong??

I even looking for detailed information aobut packtaschen before m.34. Maybe someone can help me:)??

Regards!!

[Reiter]

Before Packtasche M34 were:

-Packtasche 26

-changed Packtasche a.A. to M26

-Packtasche a.A. introduced in 1920

Both models were used in combination with socalled Hilfspacktaschen from brown breadbag-material. Hilfspacktaschen were introduced and used since 1895.

Horrido!

Nicole

[Lookas]

Thank You for information. If i good understand, this Hilfspacktaschen was used together with a bread-bag.

I find this picute in Osprey Book:


Is this that Hilfspacktaschen??

And on this picture is this??


(source: http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethr ... 129-0.html )

I ask for this details because i try "rebuild" a soldier of 1st Uhlan Regiment of Wielkopolska ( 1 Pułk Ulanów Wielkopolskich) wich was formed in time of Uprising in Wielkopolska in 1919 year.

here You can see how it looks like:


When a uprising start in Poznań, new born cavalry used prusian horse gear wich was find in the military magazine. I try to recover in details wich pattern of saddle, taschen and briddle was used. In this moment i almost sure that was saddle m.89 with Hilfspacktaschen. I stil dont know wich briddle:(
And i looking for some dimensions od this tasche to make a copy to use with saddle:)

I read this site:
http://www.lovettartillery.com/GER_FA_C ... ridle_.htm
and stll not sure.....

[Reiter]

Hi Lookas,

interesting project you start.

Thank You for information. If i good understand, this Hilfspacktaschen was used together with a bread-bag.

No, thats wrong. The Hilfspacktaschen were the same material as bread-bag, but they were put/buckled "under" the usual leather Packtaschen.

I find this picute in Osprey Book:Is this that Hilfspacktaschen??

No, on the picture are from above: Packtasche 34, Packtasche 26 and Packtasche a.A.

The Packtaschen from the both Husaren on the photograph have sizes:
-height: 31cm
-width: 18cm
-depth: 9cm
On the left saddle-bag is also the pocket for the horseshoes and a small patron-bag (10cm, 7cm, 5cm)
The horses wear the bridle M88.

I own a new made copy of such a bridle used that time you need. Its a Bavarian version of the Prussian bridle M88. The only difference: on the Bavarian bridle M93 the reins of the bit (not from the S-Kandare!) had buckles, the reins of the M88 not but were sewed direclty on the bit.
These bridles were made in three sizes.
Here a photograph:

Zaumzeug.JPG (96.33 KiB) Viewed 42406 times

Horrido!

Nicole

[Lookas]

Thank You Nicole!!

I try understand one more time:)

The Hilfspacktaschen was buckled under the leather packtaschen A.a?? That means the reitter has two taschen ( leather and under this one a Hilfspacktaschen) ??

Fiew day ago i find this bid on Ebay. Is possible that this is a part (one side) of Hilfspacktaschen??

http://cgi.ebay.de/Alte-packtasche-/120618950553

All of this is more intersting than i think previous:) especielly because in Young Poland nat diferent types od horse gear from nay armies ( USA, France, UK, Austrian and Prussian) was in use in the same time. Where i can find some books or regulations about Prussian gear??

[Pat Holscher]

How did Poland go about forming a military so soon after its independence? Remnants of German and Russian sponsored units?

[Lookas]

Poland recover his independence in 1918, but not all country. As You know, earlier was be divided between Rossia, Prusia and Austro-Hungary. When Great War was finished Poland become to independece country. But some parts of Poland was still in own by other. Army of Poland build from voluntery wich serve earlier in russian, prussian or k.u.k. army.

In Wielkopolska, wich parts stil leave in German border, in winter 1918 starts an uprising and volunteers fight against a prussian soldiers, and all stuff wich they win, become his gear.

Saddles, horses and other cavalry equipment volunteers find in prussian magazines in Poznań (ger.Posen - wich was a big prussian garrison) and Gniezno (ger. Gnesen).

So i cant say about Prussian a"sponsor":)

If we talking about all cavalry equipment, German, Russian and K.u.k. was taken in fight.
French come to Poland with "Blue Army" of gen.Haller wich was formed in France, or buy as military surplus after a Great War.
The same was in case of US or UK cavalry (and other ) stuff.

and here You can read about Uprising in Wielkopolska

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Po ... 80%931919)

Regards!!

[Pat Holscher]

Bump.

This is bumped up as the topic is the Armeesattel 25, but there are a lot of threads with 25s in them, so this is far from the only one.

[Tom Muller]

Gents,

I was fortunate enough to get a pair of German saddle bags for the AS 25, in excellent condition. I still need to get the connecting piece (Überwurf) for them (plus the saddle!). An old German Cavalryman I met by chance gave them to me. What would be the best way to treat the leather? I wanna use them, not stow them away.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

Tom

[Tom Muller]

Gentlemen,

I found a couple of AS 25´s in a barn, plus a hungarian cavalry saddle. As soon as the saddle is back from my saddler to fix some stitching, I´ll send some photos again. It looks as if the saddle was manufactured after 1943, because the saddle flaps are fixed by one screw only and there are no markings on the saddle although it has the centre strap under the roughhide seat to attach it to the military harness (Sielengeschirr 25). Apparently all saddles after 1943 had to be manufactured with this strap. It is a size 3 saddle so it will fit most warmbloods and I will definitely ride it as it is in perfect condition. The other saddles com from size 1 (small) to 5, with markings but in very bad shape somehow. Most interesting is, that I also found two UP's in the same heap of old saddles! I hope I can find out the story on them as well.

Cheers

Tom