Red Army cavalry

[Pat Holscher]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/nightwaves/ ... #imagelink

Relatively good view of saddle.

[KY Hussar]

LOL...you beat me to the punch! The saddle is in great shape, and so is the horse...well fed, it looks.

[jan]

Jan

[Tom Muller]

Jan,

thanks for posting these pics. What unit is depiccted in the first photograph? The reason why I'm asking are the strange looking knives carried on the belt at the troopers left side. They do not look like bayonets, rather like some traditional knife.


Tom

[Trooper]

Those knives are Russian (Cossack?) sabres or Shasquas
In some configurations, as for Dragoons, the bayonet is attached to the front of the sabre scabbard.
Google "Shasqua" for lots of examples.

[Tom Muller]

Dusan,

thanks! You can actually see that it is a sabre when you look at the blokes up front. So I guess they were Cossacks, wearing standard Russian uniform and kit, but retaining the traditional sabre?

Tom

[Reese Williams]

Interestingly even though they are equipped with the saber scabbard that has the integral bayonet carrier none of them are carrying bayonets. The bayonet carrier was comprised of two brass rings protrouding from the two brass rings on the scabbard. They are most clearly visible on the nearest man in the first photo. The bayonet was a tapered cruciform spike about 17 inches long with a socket mount.

[jan]

Tom,

Unfortunaly I don't now what unit it is, certainly regular cavalry, the sabre is indeed the dragoon model.


This photo, showing the real face of war, gives a good vieuw of a Russian troopers saddle.



Jan

[jan]

Cossack unit, the sabre carried by the rider in the left lower corner is possible the Cossack Schaschka model 1900 of the "Don type" without the holders for the bajonet.




Jan

[Pat Holscher]

Note the one soldier carrying the PPSh has a flat magazine, rather than the drum magazine. I knew they used both, but you don't see all that many photographs of the flat magazine.

[Pat Holscher]

Jan

I wonder what the vintage of that photo is? I almost wonder if it's pre war?

[Pat Holscher]

Cossack unit, the sabre carried by the rider in the left lower corner is possible the Cossack Schaschka model 1900 of the "Don type" without the holders for the bajonet.




Jan

Looks like a mortar round or something just went off in the river.

[Tom Muller]

Cossack unit, the sabre carried by the rider in the left lower corner is possible the Cossack Schaschka model 1900 of the "Don type" without the holders for the bajonet.




Jan

Looks like a mortar round or something just went off in the river.

How about the bloke in the left hand corner (you can just see his head) throwing a hand grenade during an exercise? They would have bombshelled or at least sped up if under real fire. The whole scene is rather calm. Also note the setting of the camera. But then I'm just guessing.

Tom

[Tom Muller]

If the photo with the machine gun troop was pre war, the horses were in bad condition. Look at the hip bone and spine protruding. They look scruffy anyhow, not too much grooming I guess, maybe parasites?

Tom

[jan]

The photo of the machine gun troop is certainly wartime, the tunic that they wear is the model 1943 gymnastiorka, with standing collar and epaulettes. The previous model 1935 had a flat collar with insignia on and no epaulettes.

Jan

[Todd]

Interesting - no 1938-type M-N carbines.

Do we err in making the assumption that all carbines were primarily horse-oriented weapons? Seems that the trend to the shorter rifles ( M1903, Garand, Mauser 98, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) suited mounted troops very well, and the "second generation" of short weapons was primarily required for vehicles with their cramped/awkward interiors.

[Kentucky Horseman]

Interesting - no 1938-type M-N carbines.

Do we err in making the assumption that all carbines were primarily horse-oriented weapons? Seems that the trend to the shorter rifles ( M1903, Garand, Mauser 98, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) suited mounted troops very well, and the "second generation" of short weapons was primarily required for vehicles with their cramped/awkward interiors.

The M-N 1938 was designed as a cavalry long arm, however carbines were issue to artillery and engineers as well as cavalry, the main different in most armies was cavalry had the sabre was their close in fighting weapon and there for didn't have a bayonet and the other did. The short rifles exspecially the Lee Enfield was designed from the lesson of the Boer war, infantry rifles were too long to be handled from horseback and cavalry carbines lacked range. The American followed the British example and designed one rifle as a unverisal sysyem instead of a rifle and carbine systems.

[Todd]

Interesting - no 1938-type M-N carbines.

Do we err in making the assumption that all carbines were primarily horse-oriented weapons? Seems that the trend to the shorter rifles ( M1903, Garand, Mauser 98, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) suited mounted troops very well, and the "second generation" of short weapons was primarily required for vehicles with their cramped/awkward interiors.

The M-N 1938 was designed as a cavalry long arm, however carbines were issue to artillery and engineers as well as cavalry, the main different in most armies was cavalry had the sabre was their close in fighting weapon and there for didn't have a bayonet and the other did. The short rifles exspecially the Lee Enfield was designed from the lesson of the Boer war, infantry rifles were too long to be handled from horseback and cavalry carbines lacked range. The American followed the British example and designed one rifle as a unverisal sysyem instead of a rifle and carbine systems.

Perhaps I should have designated a time frame - post-1900.

[Pat Holscher]

Cossack unit, the sabre carried by the rider in the left lower corner is possible the Cossack Schaschka model 1900 of the "Don type" without the holders for the bajonet.




Jan

Looks like a mortar round or something just went off in the river.

How about the bloke in the left hand corner (you can just see his head) throwing a hand grenade during an exercise? They would have bombshelled or at least sped up if under real fire. The whole scene is rather calm. Also note the setting of the camera. But then I'm just guessing.

Tom

It is an odd photo that way. If they're under fire, they're not too excited about it.

[Pat Holscher]

The photo of the machine gun troop is certainly wartime, the tunic that they wear is the model 1943 gymnastiorka, with standing collar and epaulettes. The previous model 1935 had a flat collar with insignia on and no epaulettes.

Jan

Thanks!

I'll confess that I know so little about Soviet forces, I actually don't know what some of these terms mean. What's a gymnastiorka? Their tunic?