Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Yes we did, but it did not become perminent The were used a few times, firstly when were were asked by Engineers who were building a "Cordon Sanitair" along the Eastern Border. If we could carry rolls of barbed wire and fencing posts up to them, in an area that was inacesable to wheeled transport. We did that for a few weeks until they were clear of that area.

On the other occassions we carried mortors and bombs, as well as HMG's and amo into Mozambique, at an Area called Chimoi some distance inside Mozambique. This was a clandistine op carried out by SF on a training and base camp, it was a succesful operation and all units and animals returned safely. Having destroyed a large training and base camp, the pack animals returned to the Rhodesian Border.

Roy

[epona]

Dear Roy and Pat,

I have a group called Cavalry on facebook;

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4 ... 7123354972

I was wondering if I could get permission to post some of the pictures on this thread or if you would like to post some on there yourself.

Rikke.

[Sam Cox]

I would suggest link the thread in your facebook instead

just my 2 bob but i have found my pics all over the www without permission

regards

Sam

[roy elderkin]

Regarding the photos on this thread, I cannot speak for others who contributed their photos, it would be their decision. As far as I am concerned they must remain on the forum, under the control of the administrators, I will not permit them to be published elswhere without my permission, and concur with Sam's thoughts on this matter.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Dear Roy and Pat,

I have a group called Cavalry on facebook;

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4 ... 7123354972

I was wondering if I could get permission to post some of the pictures on this thread or if you would like to post some on there yourself.

Rikke.

Rikke, I think you are seeking to upload photos here, on our forum, rather than use our photos elsewhere, is that correct?

Rikke, you can always link photos in here, which is what I think you're asking to do. That is, you want to post your photos on forums here.

There are two ways to do that. There's one method that allows a direct link on your post with the "upload attachment" option that appears below. Another is to ues the Img feature and directly post the URL.

We always welcome photos very much, as long as they're open to posting (i.e., not copyrighted or belonging to people who have not given their permission). We try to be very careful in not violating any copyrights, and likewise we always hold that the owners of photos that post them here continue to have the say on whether or not they are posted elsewhere. We've started watermarking photos here for that reason, when they're unique. Thanks for asking and being interested in posting photos. The contribute a great deal to the threads.

[epona]

I will not post them there then. I just wanted to ask first before doing anything

[Pat Holscher]

I do not know about records, but the situation was eliviated by using TA and some regulars, in that all were horseman and fully infantry trained. Many if not all had been in opperations before, so there was no need to either teach them to ride or infantry train them. The only thing that had to be taught was mounted infantry tactics, this took less time than anticipated and we were able to deploy on time, the situation at that time was pretty urgent.

This was the only time that we deployed in this manner, as I and the senior infantry instructor returned to barracks whilst they were out. And began a proper training program with the introduction of other training instructors, to form the first Regular SQn of three troops. So whilst the TA bore the brunt of call ups, they then relieved the TA and they began their normal call up cycle.

As you say it was pretty hectic time, and there were not enough hours in the day.

Roy

Roy, given the background of the TAs, and their existing familiarity with horses, can I suppose that horses remained in common agricultural use in Rhodesia at this time?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

The best way I can explain the TA used by Grey's, is this way, otherwise it could become slightly convoluted. As an historical background, the majority of TA, are Old Rhodesian's in that they were decendants from English or Afrikaaner, many of whom could trace their ancestors back to the old Boer stock of SA. On the English side they were decendants, of former English soldiers who decided between and after two wars to settle and farm in the country. So with this background, horses were to some extent a way of life, and were used mostly as social and domestic. On the bigger ranches where agricultural use was mixed ie cattle maize and tobbaco, they would use them around the ranches.

But they all had one thing in common, riding horses was a way of life, they were taught by their fathers who inturn were taught by theirs. In turn from a very early age they would learn their bush craft and tracking skills from the African farm labourers, and like their horsemanship skills they could shoot and handle a rifle from an early age. Some learnt their skills in horse sports, skill at arms, barrell racing, and cross country riding such as point to point racing, a number of them were able to speak more than one African Language, and understood the African way of life and its customs.

As far as using horses in agriculture, they did not use them for ploughing or pulling carts, the Rhodesians like the Afrikaaner would use big oxen, called treck oxen to do this sort of work. As our main source of manpower Grey's would never have got of the ground without the TA, and the skills they brought with them.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

The best way I can explain the TA used by Grey's, is this way, otherwise it could become slightly convoluted. As an historical background, the majority of TA, are Old Rhodesian's in that they were decendants from English or Afrikaaner, many of whom could trace their ancestors back to the old Boer stock of SA. On the English side they were decendants, of former English soldiers who decided between and after two wars to settle and farm in the country. So with this background, horses were to some extent a way of life, and were used mostly as social and domestic. On the bigger ranches where agricultural use was mixed ie cattle maize and tobbaco, they would use them around the ranches.

But they all had one thing in common, riding horses was a way of life, they were taught by their fathers who inturn were taught by theirs. In turn from a very early age they would learn their bush craft and tracking skills from the African farm labourers, and like their horsemanship skills they could shoot and handle a rifle from an early age. Some learnt their skills in horse sports, skill at arms, barrell racing, and cross country riding such as point to point racing, a number of them were able to speak more than one African Language, and understood the African way of life and its customs.

As far as using horses in agriculture, they did not use them for ploughing or pulling carts, the Rhodesians like the Afrikaaner would use big oxen, called treck oxen to do this sort of work. As our main source of manpower Grey's would never have got of the ground without the TA, and the skills they brought with them.

Roy

Thanks Roy. I wouldn't have thought that any draft animals remained in use during this period, so that's a surprise. I had wondered if horses were used in cattle herding, and I see they were. Beyond that, they seem to have simply been part of the rural community, which makes sense.

[Pat Holscher]

On the origins of the unit:

Two Rhodesian Army Officers Major Beaver Frazer-Kirk and Tony Stephens, had the idea of using horses in war. This was not a new concept. Rhodesia being large with four borders to control, its manpower and resources would be stretched to the limit in the coming war. Beaver Frazer-Kirk and Tony Stephens undertook to do user trials with horses in the Eastern Highlands, the idea was to form an animal transport unit. This was undertaken with the British South Africa Police who were supposed to be the ultimate authority on the matter of horses, after all they were supposed to be the first line of Defense, war had not been declared therefore everything was deemed a Police operation. The Police had a mounted section, but it had not been used for some years, its only purpose was for ceremonial duties. Ironically the Police right up until the 60's had been using the horse to patrol areas of Rhodesia, before the arrival of the motor cycle and land rover. I sometimes wonder if these types of patrols had continued and the Police remained in areas where there was continuity between the trooper and the rural African whether the history of Rhodesia would have been different. However, back to our story. The trails were completed; the Police submitted a report to the effect that the use of the animals in the way that was suggested by the two Officers was not a feasible proposition. The concept was to use the animals to carry logistical equipment, in areas that were inaccessible during certain periods of the year, namely the rainy season. The Police did not think it was a worthwhile task in fact they were to be proved wrong on all counts, as our story will relate. One was when Grey's were actually using horses in a combat role, as well as carrying supplies, and in some cross border operations into Mozambique. There must have been some gnashing of teeth at Police Headquarters, for two years later after Grey's became official, the police put their own units into the field, without much success I might add.

The two officers having a great deal more tenacity than the Police, approached the Army with their report, saying that in their opinion it could be done provided the right equipment and manpower could be provided. The Army was not actually sold on the idea, but someone up there must have thought so. They were prepared to give it a try, but if the results were not satisfactory the idea would be dropped. They did not want to see a transport unit as such, but it was proposed that a Mounted Infantry Unit be formed, the idea being that they be used on the border, namely the Eastern border which already had a code word for ops, "Hurricane". The Unit was then formed under the name of MIU.

Roy, when you first heard of the idea of raising a mounted unit, what were your first thoughts?

[roy elderkin]

Pat
With rather mixed feelings, one thinks in terms of the wheel being reinvented. There were more questions than answers at the time, questions like where was the expertise to be found, you can find people who can ride, but were they capable of taking horses into the field. We had lost most of this ability, even in this modern age where country's have mounted units, it does not follow that they can take horses into the field, there is no need for them to do so.
I had cut my teeth in the field with horses, so it was nothing to do it all over again, but one person does not make a mounted unit, it takes the sum of the whole. As to the concept of a mounted unit, there was things going for it and things against it. But if the truth be known it was something that should not have been stopped in the first place, there is still a place for the horse, either in the police or army and the ranch. And if we do not continue to teach the practice of taking horses into the field, slowly but surely we will loose this expertise completely.
If there was one thing about my riding career that I had mised the most, after the police, was taking a horse into the field for there was so much to learn. So when the opportunity came about to join an active mounted unit, it did not take very much persuading. Here was a golden opportunity to go back to the very nature of horsemanship, and all that it entails, that is the persuit of knowledge and understanding and the expertise that comes with it, it is sad that all of this came about in the time of war, but I not regret one moment of it.

Roy

[Joseph Sullivan]

ROy:

Your latest has begged the question of how taking horses into the field was different.

J

[roy elderkin]

Joe
I could go on forever with this one but I will keep it succinct. We live in a modern era, horses stabled in barns with all the comforts of home, air conditioning, heating automatic waters etc. Feed and hay is delivered, the vet and farrier is only a telephone away, I am not saying this apply's to everyone but you get the picture. In some cases the rider is not even required to put a saddle on, let alone take it of.
Now take them away from this enviroment, and let them start to take care of horses in the field, it becomes a whole new ball game, I am not being melodramatic when I say that in Africa and I am sure it applies to the US and Australia, that field knowledge and your horse can be the differance between survival and at best a long walk home. It requires from the rider a full understanding of hipology, anatomy, sickness in horses, the treatment of minor wounds the, foot and shoeing what happens when a horse casts a shoe how do you deal with it, the farrier is not a phone call away and neither is the vet.
The nutritional requirements of the horse in order to keep the animal in good condition, and this also requires the rider to understand the values of hay and grass. It is amazing the number of riders who do know how much water a horse needs to drink per day and why. How to piquet a horse, or what techniques can be used to tie a horse up and protect it at night. Where to stop, when to graze, when to off saddle and when to dismount and walk and off course why.
All these things along with an understanding of the enviroment in which you live, with field craft ,can of course be understood from a book, but a book is no good to you in the field, the best place to learn is in the field doing it. Our forefarthers knew of these things, they did not need books, it was instinctive and in many cases they passed this knowledge on, but in this modern era this knowledge is not going on, and many cases riders are not that interested, many do not even know basic anatomy or even the care of horses, they have people who can so it becomes of little interest. This is the sad reflection of our lives today, I am glad I have done it, I have made mistakes we all have, but I have learnt a great deal more about horses and the enviroment, than most modern riders ever will, lets teach again the fundermentals of horsemanship, and pass it on or it will be lost forever, or known only by a few.

Roy

[selewis]

Joe
I could go on forever with this one but I will keep it succinct. We live in a modern era, horses stabled in barns with all the comforts of home, air conditioning, heating automatic waters etc. Feed and hay is delivered, the vet and farrier is only a telephone away, I am not saying this apply's to everyone but you get the picture. In some cases the rider is not even required to put a saddle on, let alone take it of.
Now take them away from this enviroment, and let them start to take care of horses in the field, it becomes a whole new ball game, I am not being melodramatic when I say that in Africa and I am sure it applies to the US and Australia, that field knowledge and your horse can be the differance between survival and at best a long walk home. It requires from the rider a full understanding of hipology, anatomy, sickness in horses, the treatment of minor wounds the, foot and shoeing what happens when a horse casts a shoe how do you deal with it, the farrier is not a phone call away and neither is the vet.
The nutritional requirements of the horse in order to keep the animal in good condition, and this also requires the rider to understand the values of hay and grass. It is amazing the number of riders who do know how much water a horse needs to drink per day and why. How to piquet a horse, or what techniques can be used to tie a horse up and protect it at night. Where to stop, when to graze, when to off saddle and when to dismount and walk and off course why.
All these things along with an understanding of the enviroment in which you live, with field craft ,can of course be understood from a book, but a book is no good to you in the field, the best place to learn is in the field doing it. Our forefarthers knew of these things, they did not need books, it was instinctive and in many cases they passed this knowledge on, but in this modern era this knowledge is not going on, and many cases riders are not that interested, many do not even know basic anatomy or even the care of horses, they have people who can so it becomes of little interest. This is the sad reflection of our lives today, I am glad I have done it, I have made mistakes we all have, but I have learnt a great deal more about horses and the enviroment, than most modern riders ever will, lets teach again the fundermentals of horsemanship, and pass it on or it will be lost forever, or known only by a few.

Roy

Roy,

On this theme: I have it in mind that some time ago you were in the process of, or were considering republishing a horsemanship manual that you had written or been instrumental in creating. How is that project coming along?
Thanks all for this illuminating thread. Good questions, great answers.

Sandy

[roy elderkin]

Sandy

Thank you for your comments. Regarding the book it is still being work on , there are a few minor things to sort out. The economic climate at this time makes life a little tricky. I know that you bought the first edition, therefore when the new one comes out I will send a copy to you free and gratis.

Roy

[Joseph Sullivan]

Sandy:

I am helping with Roy's book project.

He has written the basic text -- or most of it anyway, but it will need the usual editorial, typography and layout work, and will probably end up being amplified in some areas. In other words, Roy is where most authors are when they have completed their basic text. Unfortunately, the global financial mess has slowed things down, as it has severely cut back on the funds available to move forward. SO, in a nutshell, we are holding fire and awaiting better times.

It will be worth the wait.

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, as usual you've shown your real insight into things here.

Joe knows, of course, the difficulties and practicalities of using horses in the field, but was drawing your comment out, and I'm glad he did, as your experience is both vast and unique. Even with my very limited experience, however, I've often been impressed by the extent to which using horses in the field is an aspect of horsemanship that's often almost completely unknown to many horsemen and horsewomen. Folks whose experience is limited to the barn and arena often are amazingly ignorant on this topic. Indeed, it truly is a whole other world.

There's quite a few comments a person can find from cavalrymen sort of complaining, or at least noting, this aspect of their occupation. A Civil War cavalryman famously wrote home to his brother to avoid becoming a cavalryman, because of all the additional labor associated with it. A German cavalryman's correspondence is reprinted in "The Cavalry of World War Two" in which he makes very similiar complaints about the infantry, noting how he was up way before them taking care of his horse, and up much later for the same reason. A much more sentimental WWII bit of German prose notes the bond between cavalryman and horse for the same reason (indeed at least the 20th Century U.S. Army officially encouraged officers and NCO's to cause men to bond with a single horse, feeling that the bond insured that the horse would be well taken care of, enlisted men were encouraged to name their horse).

Anyhow, even just trailing cattle (which work has pretty much prevented me from joining in with this year) involves a lot of horse concerns that are sort of lost on very casual horse users. Everyone is always attuned to the horse looking for signs of fatigue or injury. Picketing a horse, as Roy notes, is something most casual horsemen do not know how to do. Hobbling a horse works the same way. Hobbling can actually be dangerous to horse and man, but it's a task that is wholly omitted in the education of most horsemen.

There's really no substitute for the horse, or mule, in some roles. But they're not machines, and they're surprisingly fragile in some ways. A field user of the horse is thinking of the horse's body, and stomach, all the time.

[Pat Holscher]

Sandy:

I am helping with Roy's book project.

He has written the basic text -- or most of it anyway, but it will need the usual editorial, typography and layout work, and will probably end up being amplified in some areas. In other words, Roy is where most authors are when they have completed their basic text. Unfortunately, the global financial mess has slowed things down, as it has severely cut back on the funds available to move forward. SO, in a nutshell, we are holding fire and awaiting better times.

It will be worth the wait.

It is an excellent text. One of a kind, really.

[Joseph Sullivan]

Roy:

Your response reminds me very must of comments by a US Cavalry general in the 1914 edition of the RASP, which was the year book of the Cavalry School at Ft. Riley. At that time, there was an equitation revolution sweeping through the Cavalry. The overall standard of equitation and understanding of equitation had greatly improved -- and it continued to do so until the Cavalry dismounted. However, at the same time field-craft was being lost. The general in question pointed out that the old Cavalry had learned how to bring horses through scouts that lasted months, in years that might include 7,000 miles of travel in the most rugged conditions of the American west. Now, at the time of his writing, with the Indian Wars over, few cavalrymen did much riding off the grounds of the military reservations except for training exercises.

Of course, they got a big dope slap two years later when Villa invaded Columbus New Mexico and the Cavalry spent months chasing him in the mountains and deserts of old Mexico.

[selewis]

Sandy:

I am helping with Roy's book project.

He has written the basic text -- or most of it anyway, but it will need the usual editorial, typography and layout work, and will probably end up being amplified in some areas. In other words, Roy is where most authors are when they have completed their basic text. Unfortunately, the global financial mess has slowed things down, as it has severely cut back on the funds available to move forward. SO, in a nutshell, we are holding fire and awaiting better times.

It will be worth the wait.

It is an excellent text. One of a kind, really.

This is cheering news indeed.

I've been following this discussion with great interest, hoping at times to add a little to it but finding myself a little addled in this august company. It was the quest for this nourishing lore that led me, head down, down the trail to military horsemanship in the first place. One thing that seems evident now is that there is no lea where one can stop, gorge and sate the appetite. It's more like poking around in the bush for a mouthful here and there. But I will say that this is the most verdant spot around.

A busy time of year this, and I've got to run now and see if I can make a little hay of another sort (sorry for the continuing conceit) but I'll be thinking on this thread and if someone hasn't already prefigured my thoughts get back to it this evening.

Thanks again all.

Sandy