Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[epona]

I'm not the most frequent poster even if I have a healthy interest in military history and in particular, cavalry (or mounted infantry).

I must admit that I had never heard of the Greys Scouts but oh boy, I am interested know.

I was wondering if you generally had just one horse or if you tended to ride on different ones. I apologize if it is a silly question but I assume that there needed to be a bond between the rider and horse to do things like go into battles.

[roy elderkin]

Epona

Thank you for your interest in Grey's, they are not all that well known but are beginning to be so. This forum is about the only place that you will hear about Grey's, and its history, which in its self a tribute to Grey's.

In answer to your question, it was the policy of the Regt to issue one man the same horse, wherever possible. You can understand that horses may go sick or be injured in the course of war like like ops, but no horse was ever killed in ops, that is in actual combat, we lost a couple for other reasons. Some may have been wounded, or suffered from injurys sustained from snares and ant bear holes, but if they were unable to be returned to ops they were found good homes, no animal was put down because of injurys.

Most Grey's went through the length of the war with the same horse, and of course with it there was an imense attatchment between them.

Roy

[epona]

Epona

Thank you for your interest in Grey's, they are not all that well known but are beginning to be so. This forum is about the only place that you will hear about Grey's, and its history, which in its self a tribute to Grey's.

In answer to your question, it was the policy of the Regt to issue one man the same horse, wherever possible. You can understand that horses may go sick or be injured in the course of war like like ops, but no horse was ever killed in ops, that is in actual combat, we lost a couple for other reasons. Some may have been wounded, or suffered from injurys sustained from snares and ant bear holes, but if they were unable to be returned to ops they were found good homes, no animal was put down because of injurys.

Most Grey's went through the length of the war with the same horse, and of course with it there was an imense attatchment between them.

Roy

Roy

Thank you for your swift and interesting answer. Certainly, the Regt deserves more attention and I will gladly give it that attention. I might be a civilian but I will do what I can. I have tons of papers to write in my history studies and this really stirs my interest.

I have looked through the thread many a time and I really like the photos that you can find. It's nice to see just a piece of how you looked on horse, in uniform and what surroundings you worked in. I could not help but to giggle at the camo/zebra horse. Such a brilliant idea.

I'm glad to hear about how you treated your horses. It must have been a unique experience to work with an animal under such conditions.

Thanks once more.

Epona. (Rikke)

[roy elderkin]

Epona

Thank you for your comments, yes the experience was unique, but the tribute should go to the horses and soldiers men and woman, without them there would not have been a Grey's Scouts. Some of whom paid the sacrifice that soldiers, have to bear in times of war. I had the privilage of training and instructing, these men and woman it is I who is privilaged to have served with them.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Thank you for your interest in Grey's, they are not all that well known but are beginning to be so. This forum is about the only place that you will hear about Grey's, and its history, which in its self a tribute to Grey's.

We've been really fortunate to be able to provide information about the Grey's here, and we've been very proud and honored that Grey's veterans, Roy in particular, have participated here. It's been one of the single most significant achievements of this website and a great honor.

[Pat Holscher]

Epona

Thank you for your comments, yes the experience was unique, but the tribute should go to the horses and soldiers men and woman, without them there would not have been a Grey's Scouts. Some of whom paid the sacrifice that soldiers, have to bear in times of war. I had the privilage of training and instructing, these men and woman it is I who is privilaged to have served with them.

Roy

Roy, were there women in the Rhodesian army?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

There were a number of woman who served with the army and were refered to as RWS [Rhodesian Womans Service] but they were not permitted to serve on the front line. In Grey's they were employed in the Vets Dept, Admin and Signals. There was one who served in the Equitation Section as a riding instructor, who was very good having been an instructor in SA with the Lippazaner School.

But a number of woman served in all branches of the Rhodesian Forces. Army, Police and Air Force. My wife was a senior A Reserve Patrol Officer with the Police, and often ran our local police station in the absence of the Member In Charge. Her uncle was my first Commanding Officer when I went into the Mounted Police, he was then Officer Commanding Manicaland Province, I saw very little of him as I was more out on patrols than in the police station, [ much to my relief].

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, when the Rhodesian Army went to re-establish a mounted unit, how did it go about figuring out a training regime for the troops? It strikes me as a quite a task for a start up unit.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Thanks a lot for the question, the only way to understand it, is to think of it comeing about in stages that is PP [planning and preperation] marrying the horse side to the infantry side in that you require expertise in both, not necessarily the same person but it does help, if the infantry instructor is horse oriantated and vis virsa that of the riding instructor.

The stages must be of course that of objective [what it is you wish achieve] and how to do you arrive at it. The training of both men and horses, their selection and of course the big one how long do you have to do it. It helps if there are no time restriction, in war one does not have that , you have to produce men and horses in the shortest possible time. Therfore the selection and training becomes more critical, and the way you present your training program has to be adjusted to bring in these shortcomeings. It is far easier to train men and horses in peacetime than under warlike conditions. Never the less one has be always concerned that the level of training is properly undertaken, because you are sending men and horses into harms way, and this philosophy is never taken lightly.

It is not easy to raise a Regt from scratch, the problem is finding the right people for the job, and with Mounted Infantry even harder. There are plenty of riding instructors, but they are not army and have not gone through the army mill, they may be good civillian instructors but a millitary instructor is a very differant animal. The same for infantry instructors ,they may be good but if they are not animal oriantated, or have an understanding of animal management and the logistical problems that come with them Then all they will be is good infantry instructors, not mounted infantry instructors. But as in all things if you have time, then these skills can be taught.

I hope this gives an insight to what is required, but it would help if you have specific questions.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Sorry I had to break off because of the time span.

When the mounted infantry question was first presented, there was a problem not just from Army who were reluctant to raise this sort of Regt, but also there was a lack of expertise in the country, in that there was no one who was millitary trained. There were plenty of civilians, but did not have any idea of of either training or producing a training program.

It was just by luck that I had arrived back in country after serving with the Troop in the UK, and it was my boss who happened to mention it some one he knew at Army HQ. The next thing was that I was summoned to Army HQ, there I met my future CO. I was asked to prepare and present a paper to them as to what was rearly involved of raising a Regt of this type. It was a very involved meeting taking over about 2 days to get through everything, and ranged from logistics, personell, training programs, only on the horse side that is selection of remounts and equpment. The next few days after that was directed at the infantry program, in this case it was conducted by the CO to be, and a superb Infantry Instructor who was with the SAS. So it was from this meeting that a few months later, I was asked to join the Army.

Everything we did initialy, that is the training programs selection of personel and building programs for stables, farriers, vetinary, saddlers, signals and admin had to be approved by Army HQ. But to get to that stage there were hours of planning, program preperations, contacting people and agents for saddlery and the purchase of remounts. We then had to submit to Army the length of time it would take to put a troop fully equiped in the field, in the shortest possible time.

Sorry I will have to break again will come back later.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

Thanks a lot for the question, the only way to understand it, is to think of it comeing about in stages that is PP [planning and preperation] marrying the horse side to the infantry side in that you require expertise in both, not necessarily the same person but it does help, if the infantry instructor is horse oriantated and vis virsa that of the riding instructor.

The stages must be of course that of objective [what it is you wish achieve] and how to do you arrive at it. The training of both men and horses, their selection and of course the big one how long do you have to do it. It helps if there are no time restriction, in war one does not have that , you have to produce men and horses in the shortest possible time. Therfore the selection and training becomes more critical, and the way you present your training program has to be adjusted to bring in these shortcomeings. It is far easier to train men and horses in peacetime than under warlike conditions. Never the less one has be always concerned that the level of training is properly undertaken, because you are sending men and horses into harms way, and this philosophy is never taken lightly.

It is not easy to raise a Regt from scratch, the problem is finding the right people for the job, and with Mounted Infantry even harder. There are plenty of riding instructors, but they are not army and have not gone through the army mill, they may be good civillian instructors but a millitary instructor is a very differant animal. The same for infantry instructors ,they may be good but if they are not animal oriantated, or have an understanding of animal management and the logistical problems that come with them Then all they will be is good infantry instructors, not mounted infantry instructors. But as in all things if you have time, then these skills can be taught.

I hope this gives an insight to what is required, but it would help if you have specific questions.

Roy

Thanks, it's this last item that struck me as particularly problematic;

It is not easy to raise a Regt from scratch, the problem is finding the right people for the job, and with Mounted Infantry even harder. There are plenty of riding instructors, but they are not army and have not gone through the army mill, they may be good civillian instructors but a millitary instructor is a very differant animal. The same for infantry instructors ,they may be good but if they are not animal oriantated, or have an understanding of animal management and the logistical problems that come with them Then all they will be is good infantry instructors, not mounted infantry instructors. But as in all things if you have time, then these skills can be taught.

One thing that really occurs to me here is that in most armies, there was a long standing mounted section of some sort, so even as late as WWII, when provisional units were raised, there was a pool of retained knowledge.

I'd guess that to be somewhat true of Rhodesia in the 70s, but still, it strikes me as a tremendous chore for the reasons you note here. If a person was to be tasked with it, for example, today, the learning curve would be huge, even with the printed resources that were available. Indeed, I think today the knowledge to even appreciate the capabilities and utility of this type of unit in certain conditions is probably darn near lost. Putting together a unit must have been really tough.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

Sorry I had to break off because of the time span.

When the mounted infantry question was first presented, there was a problem not just from Army who were reluctant to raise this sort of Regt, but also there was a lack of expertise in the country, in that there was no one who was millitary trained. There were plenty of civilians, but did not have any idea of of either training or producing a training program.

It was just by luck that I had arrived back in country after serving with the Troop in the UK, and it was my boss who happened to mention it some one he knew at Army HQ. The next thing was that I was summoned to Army HQ, there I met my future CO. I was asked to prepare and present a paper to them as to what was rearly involved of raising a Regt of this type. It was a very involved meeting taking over about 2 days to get through everything, and ranged from logistics, personell, training programs, only on the horse side that is selection of remounts and equpment. The next few days after that was directed at the infantry program, in this case it was conducted by the CO to be, and a superb Infantry Instructor who was with the SAS. So it was from this meeting that a few months later, I was asked to join the Army.

Everything we did initialy, that is the training programs selection of personel and building programs for stables, farriers, vetinary, saddlers, signals and admin had to be approved by Army HQ. But to get to that stage there were hours of planning, program preperations, contacting people and agents for saddlery and the purchase of remounts. We then had to submit to Army the length of time it would take to put a troop fully equiped in the field, in the shortest possible time.

Sorry I will have to break again will come back later.

Roy

Wow! Thanks. I'll be looking forward to your next entry!

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Having gone through the planning stage, setting up the training programs etc, Army dropped another bomb on us. We were informed that apart from initiating the training and selection program, we would be given the materials to build everything but we would have to do the building. At that time we were in tentage accomodation, horses that we did have were on a piquet line, there were no buildings. The only concession we did have was that we were given a sufficiant budget, to employ local people to help in the building work.

One further problem that arose was that we were requested to deploy a lot quicker than was projected, we were now in a dilema without rearly adequate training we had to deploy. We then had to excelerate everything, this was overcome by requesting permission to call up the TA with their own horses. The TA were fully trained infantry wise, and their skills with horses were very good most being farmers. This reduced the training time, and we were able to deploy on time. So with building, training , selecting remounts with trips to SA it was all a close run thing.

On a final note the Grey's Scouts are still active in Zimbabwe, under the name of the Zimbabwe Mounted Infantry [Grey's Scouts]. My brother and sister in law have just arrived from Zimbabwe having finaly been allowed to come and live in the UK. And he brought with him a message from the present CO of the Regt, he was one of the first African soldiers that we trained after Independance as a riding instructor, there were four of them, Pat you have a news paper cutting of them. They have the same standards and training of mounted infantry that were laid down all those years ago when the Regt was first formed. This comes as wonderfull news, so at least we got something right.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

One further problem that arose was that we were requested to deploy a lot quicker than was projected, we were now in a dilema without rearly adequate training we had to deploy. We then had to excelerate everything, this was overcome by requesting permission to call up the TA with their own horses. The TA were fully trained infantry wise, and their skills with horses were very good most being farmers. This reduced the training time, and we were able to deploy on time. So with building, training , selecting remounts with trips to SA it was all a close run thing.

What was the time period between initiating the concept and deployment?

On the TA, while I know that you've addressed it before, how did you integrate Territorials with the unit? Was it a species of conscription? That is, how did the unit determine which Territorials it should take it, or require to be incorporated?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

There was a great deal going on before I arrived, so I can only relate to the time I became involved. The country at that time was a close knit community, especialy in the horse world. The CO and 2IC would have known who if asked would join us, they would have been in the TA pool. All males between the ages 16 and 60 were required to register, those that were of age were required to undergo military service, once they had completed this they were transfered to the TA pool.

From then on it was rather word of mouth, that a mounted infantry unit was being formed, and were calling for volunteers. We had no problems recruiting the TA section, also from regular soldiers we had a number who would join us. Because of the time frame we wanted a Troop of about 40 strong, including ancillary staff, this was as much as we could handle at that time. The time frame from the concept of the Unit to deployment was about 2 months.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

There was a great deal going on before I arrived, so I can only relate to the time I became involved. The country at that time was a close knit community, especialy in the horse world. The CO and 2IC would have known who if asked would join us, they would have been in the TA pool. All males between the ages 16 and 60 were required to register, those that were of age were required to undergo military service, once they had completed this they were transfered to the TA pool.

From then on it was rather word of mouth, that a mounted infantry unit was being formed, and were calling for volunteers. We had no problems recruiting the TA section, also from regular soldiers we had a number who would join us. Because of the time frame we wanted a Troop of about 40 strong, including ancillary staff, this was as much as we could handle at that time. The time frame from the concept of the Unit to deployment was about 2 months.

Roy

Two months? Wow. That's extremely rapid. Indeed, I wonder if it isn't almost some type of record for a special unit such as this. It must have been a very hectic period indeed.

Did the establishment remain at 40 men throughout the war?

[roy elderkin]

I do not know about records, but the situation was eliviated by using TA and some regulars, in that all were horseman and fully infantry trained. Many if not all had been in opperations before, so there was no need to either teach them to ride or infantry train them. The only thing that had to be taught was mounted infantry tactics, this took less time than anticipated and we were able to deploy on time, the situation at that time was pretty urgent.

This was the only time that we deployed in this manner, as I and the senior infantry instructor returned to barracks whilst they were out. And began a proper training program with the introduction of other training instructors, to form the first Regular SQn of three troops. So whilst the TA bore the brunt of call ups, they then relieved the TA and they began their normal call up cycle.

As you say it was pretty hectic time, and there were not enough hours in the day.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

A territorial soldier in the Rhodesian army, was one had completed his national service, and was liable for call up, or draft as you would know it. Every male between the age of 16 and 50 was liable to be called up, on leaving school all males had complete and report for national service training . In British context an TA soldier is voluntary, or is transfered to the reserve after being a regular soldier.

Given as there's some new folks here, and some of these terms might not be familiar to everyone, I thought I'd bump up this item of Roy's explaining what TAs were in the Rhodesian context.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat
Yes thats reservists, they had their own horses at home, but most of them brought them to the Regt when it was being formed. Somewhere on the thread I think I made reference to it, they were designated C Sqn. And they were very active with Grey's, towards the latter end of the war their call up periods became more and more frequent, resulting in many leaving the country, manpower became a serious problem towards the end of 1980.

Roy

An earlier item on the TAs by Roy.

Very interesting stuff. I failed to appreciate earlier how significant reservists were in the unit.

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, did the Greys ever attach a pack section to the unit?