Prices at the Dawn of the Gasoline Age, Dusk of the Equine

[selewis]

Interesting example of how the car allowed greater access to the country. Bird hunters in 1905 and 1906.

Remarkable similarity in some ways to its horse drawn predecessor, the English dog cart.

[Pat Holscher]

Interesting example of how the car allowed greater access to the country. Bird hunters in 1905 and 1906.

Remarkable similarity in some ways to its horse drawn predecessor, the English dog cart.

I've often read about "dog carts", but I don't really know much about them. What were they like, and what were they used for?

[selewis]

Several styles, two and four wheeled, with various seating arrangements, existed. The few models I've seen have had a high front seat and a compartment below or behind for hunting dogs. They were used to transport dogs and hunters to the field.

[Pat Holscher]

I just posted this on the Homesteading in Canada thread:

To add to this, I've been reading Timothy Egan's "The Worst Hard Times" about the Dust Bowl era. A friend of mine recently read it, enjoyed, and therefore loaned it to me.

Anyhow, this book mentions that 1914 was the high mark for homestead entries. Interesting to think of. People think of homesteading as a 19th Century thing, which it was, but it was also a 20th Century thing as well. I wouldn't have guessed, however, that 1914 was the year that had the most entries. This being, of course, in the US.

I'll also note that Egan makes the point, perhaps somewhat exaggerated, that homesteading wheat farmers went from horse drawn plows to small tractors in less than ten years on the Oklahoma panhandle, and that they went from poverty to moderate wealth in that time as well. Part of that was because there was a wheat boom on, as Russia wasn't exporting any, being tied up in WWI and then its civil war. But it wouldn't have been possible to get rich from wheat with horse or mule drawn implements as they're too slow.

[Trooper]

Just heard that crude has dropped below $50.00 per barrel...

[Pat Holscher]

Just heard that crude has dropped below $50.00 per barrel...

When the recent price jump started rolling, it was about $35.00/bbl. This would be a couple of years ago.

Indeed, as luck would have it, my wife and I had just traded in our nifty, but not very fuel efficient, Nissan Pathfinder and purchased a Suburban. The Chevrolet Suburban is regarded as the standard bearer of everything that's wrong with the American automobile industry, by those who regard everything as being wrong with it, but they are the regional Family Truckster. If a person needs to haul kids around here in the winter, and needs to go out in the boonies, they're going to have a Suburban at some point.

And it gets better mileage than the much smaller Nissan Pathfinder did. Even having the trailer package, as it does.

For that reason, I'm somewhat skeptical of the common, "they build the wrong things" cry, as I suspect that means, "they keep building what we want". There's lots of other problems with the US auto industry, but one small part of that problem is the American consumer.

But I digress.

Anyhow, right after we bought the Suburban, the price of fuel rose. That's about the last time it was $35/bbl. I was very worried about it at the time, as I'm cheap. But my wife rightfully points out that it gets better mileage than what she was driving, and we didn't have a lot of choice. Be that as it may, I concede there's real deflation if the price drops below $35/bbl.

[JV Puleo]

Thats a great car and great pictures of it. I'm not sure what it is but its very likely older than the date on the picture... more like 1901-1903 which is a good example of how fast something that was very expensive became "used" was relegated to basically a utility vehicle...

Joe P

[Pat Holscher]

I saw a paper artifact yesterday that, I think, sort of subtly, but neatly, demonstrated "the way things were" up until 1930 or so, more or less.

This was a map, published by the United States government, depicting the State of Wyoming in 1923. It's hanging up in a hallway of the Converse County courthouse.

Anyhow, the map was a very nice, complete, map, attempting to depict all the significant features that typically appear on such maps. The one thing lacking, however, was road.

Not a single road or highway between towns was depicted. All the railroads were.

One interesting thing on the railroads is that there were rail lines which are no longer there. A few of them I recognize, as the evidence of their existence remains, with no rails. I can think of at least three of these abandoned lines I've seen, but there were more than that depicted.

Fairly obviously, in the eyes of the cartographer, the railroads were significant, but the highways and county road were not. And, at that time, they probably weren't terribly significant. Over the past two days I've gotten up early, driving to a town fifty miles away to do some work, and driving back in the evening. I could have done that in 1923. A highway (but not an Interstate) would have been there, but I'd guess it would have been much more of a trip.

[Pat Holscher]

I posted this on another thread, but the item about cars is of interest to this one. It was odd to look at this again (I've looked at some of this location before) and realize how much these two families retained one foot very much in the 19th Century, but automobile wise, were keeping up with their times.

I had the occasion to look at a couple of abandoned homesteads around here yesterday. I've looked at one of them before, but in light of the discussion on some of these threads about them, it was interesting to look at them again.

These were two adjoining farmsteads, owned by two brothers and their families. Each farmstead was a section in size, and they were both hay farms. They were both droughted out in the 30s.

It was instructive to look at them, particularly keeping in mind that this wasn't really all that long ago, and that these fit into two historical events often discussed here, WWI and WWII.

One thing that really struck me was how tiny the houses were. And by tiny, I mean ultra tiny. Both farmsteads had houses that have a smaller square footage than my living room in my house. Heck, the square footage of my business office (that is, the one with my desk, etc., in it) would darned near rival them easily. And these guys were married, and had children. the houses were stone, which must have been brought in from about five miles away. Living must have been tight indeed. One of the farmsteads had an abandoned stage stop office on it, which was a bit larger, probably the size of a single wide trailer home, so perhaps one of the families had upgraded a bit at some point. That location still has a hand dug well on it.

One of them also had a round corral, so they must have been breaking a few horses. At one time there were a lot of implements at that location, all for hay farming. Things must have been a lot wetter prior to 1930 or so, in order to do much hay farming there. Given the terrain, it would be my guess that they'd burned out a broad valley to clear off the sagebrush, and then used it as a very large hay meadow, which would work in a really wet series of years. Clearing out the sage brush stumps would be a pain, however. It's now sage again.

The other thing that really struck me is the quantity of car parts and bodies. It's odd to think of, but these people were living in very small, tight quarters, farming with horses up in to the 30s, but they sure had the cars. I'm not sure how many cars the collection represents, as I could only identify a Model A truck and a Model A sedan, but there were other parts there. It almost looks to me like the one farmstead was occupied a bit longer, as there were clearly parts from late 1930s vintage there, and some piece of equipment I couldn't identify was stamped "1938".

Interesting mix and window into how things were for some folks, just before the US role of industrial giant in WWII.

[Pat Holscher]

I posted this on another thread, but the item about cars is of interest to this one. It was odd to look at this again (I've looked at some of this location before) and realize how much these two families retained one foot very much in the 19th Century, but automobile wise, were keeping up with their times.

I had the occasion to look at a couple of abandoned homesteads around here yesterday. I've looked at one of them before, but in light of the discussion on some of these threads about them, it was interesting to look at them again.

These were two adjoining farmsteads, owned by two brothers and their families. Each farmstead was a section in size, and they were both hay farms. They were both droughted out in the 30s.

It was instructive to look at them, particularly keeping in mind that this wasn't really all that long ago, and that these fit into two historical events often discussed here, WWI and WWII.

One thing that really struck me was how tiny the houses were. And by tiny, I mean ultra tiny. Both farmsteads had houses that have a smaller square footage than my living room in my house. Heck, the square footage of my business office (that is, the one with my desk, etc., in it) would darned near rival them easily. And these guys were married, and had children. the houses were stone, which must have been brought in from about five miles away. Living must have been tight indeed. One of the farmsteads had an abandoned stage stop office on it, which was a bit larger, probably the size of a single wide trailer home, so perhaps one of the families had upgraded a bit at some point. That location still has a hand dug well on it.

One of them also had a round corral, so they must have been breaking a few horses. At one time there were a lot of implements at that location, all for hay farming. Things must have been a lot wetter prior to 1930 or so, in order to do much hay farming there. Given the terrain, it would be my guess that they'd burned out a broad valley to clear off the sagebrush, and then used it as a very large hay meadow, which would work in a really wet series of years. Clearing out the sage brush stumps would be a pain, however. It's now sage again.

The other thing that really struck me is the quantity of car parts and bodies. It's odd to think of, but these people were living in very small, tight quarters, farming with horses up in to the 30s, but they sure had the cars. I'm not sure how many cars the collection represents, as I could only identify a Model A truck and a Model A sedan, but there were other parts there. It almost looks to me like the one farmstead was occupied a bit longer, as there were clearly parts from late 1930s vintage there, and some piece of equipment I couldn't identify was stamped "1938".

Interesting mix and window into how things were for some folks, just before the US role of industrial giant in WWII.

By the way, one thing in addition I should have noted here is that the entire implement collection appears to have been horse drawn, and there were several freight wagons. So, internal combustion wise, they seem to have been limited to automobiles.

[dallas Φ]

Pat: I just noticed that back in November you mentioned that you guys had purchased a Chevy Suburban a couple of years ago. You stated that it got better gas mileage than the Pathfinder it replaced. I am curious as to what the mileage is. I own a 2007 Chevy Trailblazer which is smaller than the Suburban. It only gets around 12 to 14 MPG in town and if I'm lucky, around 18 to 20 MPG on the road. It is 4WD and I presume that your vehicle is also. Does the Suburban do that good?
Dallas

[Pat Holscher]

Pat: I just noticed that back in November you mentioned that you guys had purchased a Chevy Suburban a couple of years ago. You stated that it got better gas mileage than the Pathfinder it replaced. I am curious as to what the mileage is. I own a 2007 Chevy Trailblazer which is smaller than the Suburban. It only gets around 12 to 14 MPG in town and if I'm lucky, around 18 to 20 MPG on the road. It is 4WD and I presume that your vehicle is also. Does the Suburban do that good?
Dallas

That's just about what we get out of 06 Suburban. Ours is a 4x4 and it has the offroad package.

As an aside on the current times, I really hope all three of the American automobile manufacturers make it through their current difficulties. For those who use trucks, there's really no substitute for the American products here. My current regular pickup is a diesel Dodge 3500 4x4, and I'd be very hard pressed to find any non US vehicle that could replace it.

As a further aside, I suppose the Suburban is another class of vehicle which we oddly owe to World War Two. The type seems to me to go back to Dodge's military "Carryall", a version of the Weapons Carrier. Likewise, the Dodge command car probably deserves a spot in the SUV's lineage. While a modern Suburban is undoubtedly much more comfortable than the old Carryall, they're essentially the same thing in 4x4, big truck based passenger vehicles. Having said that, I'm never been completely certain what the military use for the Carryall actually was.

Dodge Carryall, with civilian paint job:

http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/classifi ... _wc53.html

[wkambic]

I, too, hope that at least one maker of reliable one ton 4 x 4s makes it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a big game of "chicken" now being played out in Detroit between the UAW and the industry.

Last November I bought a 2008 3500HD Chevy (dually, crew cab, 4x4, Duramax). It's an LT "work truck" set up for towing. The sticker on the beast was $48,500. I bought it for about 2/3 that with 7500 miles on the clock in a private sale. I looked at some new 3500HDs locally and they were all $50,000+++ on the sticker and loaded up with "kitsch." (The '09s are on the lots around here pushing $60,000.) To get a "work truck" you have to be lucky or order one. Even then you're looking at the high fourties. IMO this is an unstainable price level for the average guy doing any sort of agriculture (or most other individual, blue collar professions). Could this be a reason why the Big Three are in deep kimchi? That they have priced themselves out of the market?

It's possible that bankruptcy (reorganization, not liquidation) would be a real "tonic" for the U.S. industry. It would permit a direct addressing of many of the financial issues that beset the companies (excessively large dealer structure, union contracts, etc.). The downside is that it would be real marketing problem (the companies would have to convince consumers that they will be around in the future). IMO this is not such a hard job for MadAve (they've certainly sold tough goods in the past).

Even in a liquidation it's likely that the heavy pickup truck lines would survive as there is a real demand for them. Somebody (most likely Toyota or Nissan) would grab them up and continue them, but on a much smaller scale. I'm not sure what this would do to price.

[Pat Holscher]

To get a "work truck" you have to be lucky or order one. Even then you're looking at the high fourties. IMO this is an unstainable price level for the average guy doing any sort of agriculture (or most other individual, blue collar professions). Could this be a reason why the Big Three are in deep kimchi? That they have priced themselves out of the market?

Location matters too in the price. I actually paid a figure in the 30s for my new Dodge 3500 diesel, but it's as plain as can be. It was on the lot, but in this region, there's a lot of industrial trucks purchases, so you can find the industrial ones in stock. And of course, the dealer worked with me too.

I've sure liked the truck. It has an air brake which is great when hauling a heavy trailer down out of the hills.

[JV Puleo]

I find it hard to imagine that they haven't priced themselves out of the market, especially the small tradesman or someone starting out in a trade. Lord knows agriculture must be even worse. I have a friend who is a licensed plumber and despite all the jokes about what they make, he has a tough time of it. Needing a truck or van for his work is a serious problem because his customers will judge the quality of his work on how fancy his vehicle is but complain if the prices he charges would allow him to pay for the vehicle they expect him to be driving. (Or so it seems to him. I've never judged anyone by their car or truck but I know it happens all the time. The guys at my gun club don't know what to make of me since they know I've written books and assume that makes me rich! My cars are a real embarrassment in their eyes.) Around here the "master" plumbers, electricians etc. often have fancy vehicles but they use the licensing boards to keep "outsiders" (i.e. anyone not related to them) out of the business and even then, there isn't enough work for all of them to prosper.

I just bought a junk 4WD Ford truck. It was cheap, but most important to me, its simple enough so that the potential repairs match my now very out-of-date skills and equipment. I never had to fix or replace electronic components on the antique cars and I'm more comfortable with something that responds to nuts & bolts type repairs. We'll see, it will still be a lot of work and it looks so bad that I'll have to do something about the body. The idea is to get it to a workable and not too embarrassing level and leave it alone until it completely falls apart.

Joe P

[Pat Holscher]

For agricultural pickups, I generally find that in ranch trucks most ranchers have and use a relatively recent vintage pickup, and then often have several much older ones. The pickup, often with a flatbed, is a critical piece of rolling equipment on almost every ranch, and out in this region they double as the "tractor" for heavy trailers. Diesel pickups have almost become the rule within the last decade. Anyhow, most ranchers will have a fairly recent vintage pickup, sometimes one they bought new, and sometimes one that's a couple of years old. As noted, they're mobile equipment, and pretty much necessary in modern operations. Given as they haul absolutely everthing, including heavy loads of cattle, the modern diesel pickup has sort of become what the designers of the military portee and tractor had hoped to design.

Indeed, the pickup truck is not only a critical piece of equipment, but it was an operation altering piece of equipment. The 4x4 truck, first making its appearance as a surplus item right after WWII, and then yielding to Dodge's WM300, completely altered certain practices within two decades of its introduction.

A lot of ranches will also run several older trucks too for short local use. While many of these are only a decade or so old, I still see some 1960s vintage pickups in use, and within the past decade I still knew of a few 1940s and 50s vintage Dodge Power Wagons being used, although they no longer seem to be (although one fencing company I'm aware of is running one of the WWII vintage six wheel drive weapons carriers still). One outfit was running a really old, 30s vintage flatbed heavy truck for some things, but I think that was simply an eccentric choice. These older trucks have frequently been rebuilt numerous times, and often aren't exactly highway worthy, but serve their purpose.

If the heavy diesel truck was to fall a victim to economic times, it would really have an impact of a lot of operations. Likewise, there'd be no real substitute for the American pickup as a ranching vehicle if they disappeared.

[Pat Holscher]

I posted this on another thread, but the item about cars is of interest to this one. It was odd to look at this again (I've looked at some of this location before) and realize how much these two families retained one foot very much in the 19th Century, but automobile wise, were keeping up with their times.

I had the occasion to look at a couple of abandoned homesteads around here yesterday. I've looked at one of them before, but in light of the discussion on some of these threads about them, it was interesting to look at them again.

These were two adjoining farmsteads, owned by two brothers and their families. Each farmstead was a section in size, and they were both hay farms. They were both droughted out in the 30s.

It was instructive to look at them, particularly keeping in mind that this wasn't really all that long ago, and that these fit into two historical events often discussed here, WWI and WWII.

One thing that really struck me was how tiny the houses were. And by tiny, I mean ultra tiny. Both farmsteads had houses that have a smaller square footage than my living room in my house. Heck, the square footage of my business office (that is, the one with my desk, etc., in it) would darned near rival them easily. And these guys were married, and had children. the houses were stone, which must have been brought in from about five miles away. Living must have been tight indeed. One of the farmsteads had an abandoned stage stop office on it, which was a bit larger, probably the size of a single wide trailer home, so perhaps one of the families had upgraded a bit at some point. That location still has a hand dug well on it.

One of them also had a round corral, so they must have been breaking a few horses. At one time there were a lot of implements at that location, all for hay farming. Things must have been a lot wetter prior to 1930 or so, in order to do much hay farming there. Given the terrain, it would be my guess that they'd burned out a broad valley to clear off the sagebrush, and then used it as a very large hay meadow, which would work in a really wet series of years. Clearing out the sage brush stumps would be a pain, however. It's now sage again.

The other thing that really struck me is the quantity of car parts and bodies. It's odd to think of, but these people were living in very small, tight quarters, farming with horses up in to the 30s, but they sure had the cars. I'm not sure how many cars the collection represents, as I could only identify a Model A truck and a Model A sedan, but there were other parts there. It almost looks to me like the one farmstead was occupied a bit longer, as there were clearly parts from late 1930s vintage there, and some piece of equipment I couldn't identify was stamped "1938".

Interesting mix and window into how things were for some folks, just before the US role of industrial giant in WWII.

By the way, one thing in addition I should have noted here is that the entire implement collection appears to have been horse drawn, and there were several freight wagons. So, internal combustion wise, they seem to have been limited to automobiles.

Looking back at this from another prospective, I found today that the Taylor Grazing Act came in during June of 1934. That's two years later than I had thought. The Taylor Grazing Act removed Federal grazing lands from entry for homesteading. That helps place some of this in context, or at least is interesting to note.

[Philip S]

I took the attached photo of an Amish buggy tied up at a truck stop Saturday morning in Milroy, PA (one valley south of me in central PA). This is actually a pretty common sight. Across the road a buggy was hitched to a post alongside a Dollar General store. These Amish are quite conservative, don't paint their barns, and in general seem to have taken a vow of poverty (unlike Lancaster Co. Amish who are rather prosperous).

[Pat Holscher]

I took the attached photo of an Amish buggy tied up at a truck stop Saturday morning in Milroy, PA (one valley south of me in central PA). This is actually a pretty common sight. Across the road a buggy was hitched to a post alongside a Dollar General store. These Amish are quite conservative, don't paint their barns, and in general seem to have taken a vow of poverty (unlike Lancaster Co. Amish who are rather prosperous).

Great photo! I love it!

[Pat Holscher]

Yesterday I happened to hear an NPR report on Chinese automobile manufacturers in which the the reporter indicated that there were many, many, small Chinese automobile manufacturers.

Sort of peculiar to think of, but it seems that wherever an infant automobile industry starts up, it starts up with lots of manufacturers, as noted earlier in this thread.