Armeesattel 25

[Pat Holscher]

An Armeesattel 25 in current use:

http://i28.tinypic.com/23wp65t.jpg

The text, in part, provides:

Haggard trägt hier übrigens einen Armeesattel 25 in der Größe 1. Der Sattel war laut Vorbesitzer im Kav.Reg. 15 in Paderborn im Einsatz.

I'm rusty on this, but I think this states that "Haggard (the horse's name) is wearing here an Armeesattel 25 in size 1." The saddle was apparently used by Kavallrie Regiment 15, which was stationed, I think, in Paderborn. At least I think that's what it says, and I'd be curious if that's correct.

As a total aside, Paderborn was the town in Germany where the Holscher's came from (although I'm only 1/4 German by descent, that being quite a while back).

The photo linked in above is this one:




Thanks go out to Nicole S, who registered recently as Reiter, for this photo of her horse Haggard tacked up with an Armeesattel 25. I'd like to hear some details on the horse. The saddle size is indicated as Size 1, the smallest size of Armeesattel 25, and it'd be interesting to learn the details of this horse which is saddles with one.

[Reiter]

Hello,

I own this horse since summer 2000, he is an Gidran (hungary anglo-araber), gelding, born in 1995. Very temperamentful and a very quick horse with enormous endurance although his height of 1,63m. I am riding only in terrain and enjoy it with Haggard very much.

And here is an foto of him and my new bridle Heereszaum22:

[/img]

Horrido!

Nicole

[Pat Holscher]

Hello,

I own this horse since summer 2000, he is an Gidran (hungary anglo-araber), gelding, born in 1995. Very temperamentful and a very quick horse with enormous endurance although his height of 1,63m. I am riding only in terrain and enjoy it with Haggard very much.

And here is an foto of him and my new bridle Heereszaum22:

Gidráns are a pretty rare breed. This is likely the first present day Gidrán to appear here, although Joe S. posted a photo of a Hungarian officer a while back, from WWI, with a horse that was similar in appearance, if I recall correctly. Of course, that doesn't mean that horse was a Gidrán. His height would come out to about 16 hands by way of the English system of horse measurement.

Is the Heereszaum 22 the standard German military bridle of this period?

[Pat Holscher]

Hello,

I own this horse since summer 2000, he is an Gidran (hungary anglo-araber), gelding, born in 1995. Very temperamentful and a very quick horse with enormous endurance although his height of 1,63m. I am riding only in terrain and enjoy it with Haggard very much.

And here is an foto of him and my new bridle Heereszaum22:

Gidráns are a pretty rare breed. This is likely the first present day Gidrán to appear here, although Joe S. posted a photo of a Hungarian officer a while back, from WWI, with a horse that was similar in appearance, if I recall correctly. Of course, that doesn't mean that horse was a Gidrán. His height would come out to about 16 hands by way of the English system of horse measurement.

Is the Heereszaum 22 the standard German military bridle of this period?

Also, regarding what we're viewing in the way of bridle, bit, etc., was this the standard German set of tack that we're viewing here for this period. It's interesting to note that we're seeing a leather device, rather than a lead rope, around the horses neck.

[Reiter]

that is a neat looking bridle, congratulations!
Tell me is this sort of reenacting permitted in Germany as well (I mean using Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS uniforms)? Seems strange to me doing this sort of reenacting here or in Pilsen.

Thank you. But it still looks too new...
You need in Germany and some other EU-countries an permission for reenacting the WWII. Than its no problem. In Pilsen was on 3. May a "memorial-day" for the end of war and german and us-troops with czech partisans were fighting against each other. So we took the chance.

Is the Heereszaum 22 the standard German military bridle of this period?

Yes, it was the standard military bridle of the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS cavalry. Before the Heereszaum22 was the Zaumzeug 88, which was used in the beginning twenties too. The successor of nr. 22 was Heereszaum 43. I m sure, that somewhere in the Panzer-Archiv are pictures of them.

Horrido!

Nicole

[Joseph Sullivan]

Pat:

We used leather lead lines in the US at some points, as well.

Below is the Austrian officer you mentioned. It is impossible to know what he is riding, but is sure looks like an Arab or an Arab cross -- could be the breed mentioned above, but I hae never seen one and so wouldn't know.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat:

We used leather lead lines in the US at some points, as well.

Below is the Austrian officer you mentioned. It is impossible to know what he is riding, but is sure looks like an Arab or an Arab cross -- could be the breed mentioned above, but I hae never seen one and so wouldn't know.

Ah yes, that's it.

All Gidráns are apparently chestnuts, based on what I looked up, and this one doesn't appear to be a chestnut. I'll be this is a pure Arab of some sort.

Neat photograph.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat:

We used leather lead lines in the US at some points, as well.

Below is the Austrian officer you mentioned. It is impossible to know what he is riding, but is sure looks like an Arab or an Arab cross -- could be the breed mentioned above, but I hae never seen one and so wouldn't know.

Ah yes, that's it.

All Gidráns are apparently chestnuts, based on what I looked up, and this one doesn't appear to be a chestnut. I'll be this is a pure Arab of some sort.

Neat photograph.

Also, this provides another example of the type of bit we've been recently discussing in connection with German tack.

[Tom Muller]

Note the split stirrups we discussed before. They were issued to the Waffen-SS Cavalry. Maybe Nicole, or the people from the Panzer-Archiv know more about that.

Tom

[Reiter]

Hello,

nice picture! It looks like an arab for me, maybe Shagya-arab. In german is this color "Falbe".
Yes Pat, Gidrans are always chesnut and more substantially than pure arabs or this horse.
I think, the saddle looks like this austro-hungary saddle.


The stirrups are well known. You are right. They were used mostly from Waffen-SS after the czech-Dragons were dissolved. We know the stirrups from KuK-Army.
Here is the picture from my saddle at home.

It is from czechoslovakian army, model like german Armeesattel 25, but without buckles and stirrups with the czech lion.

Horrido!

Nicole

[Reiter]

Hey Jan,

super Fotos!!! Is all of the equipment original? The Sielengeschirr 25 looks very nice!
The first picture is perfect!

Horrido!

Nicole

[selewis]

Also, this provides another example of the type of bit we've been recently discussing in connection with German tack.

Seeing this photo now the extra ring is as I supposed it to be in the other thread.

To me it is completely understandable that the rein effect this affords is not one that the trooper would want to be without in a pinch. Wouldn't most agree that steering is the most important element in horsemanship? A leading rein is the simplest and most easily understood by the horse and can be applied with force without ruining it's effect. Though often rightly described as elementary that is also it's virtue. This bit /rein arrangement strikes me as a good compromise.

Not to be dismissive of the curb which also has it's virtues, but it is deficient in this regard, even counterproductive at the extreme; a conclusion the US army came to when it abandoned the curb for most regular riding. A curb is a great bit in the right hands but if the horse chooses to ignore his training, as I've heard can happen, there's nowhere to go with it. It's also not as well suited to the demands of extensive galloping and jumping etc.

This is one reason why the ubiquitous miracle worker clinicians always introduce their clients to the snaffle and restart them with the (to them) novel concept of a simple leading rein. It isn't a 'plow rein' as it's sometimes derisively mislabeled in the western US; that would be a 'direct rein'.

Sandy

PS: Thanks Nicole for joining us and providing so much interesting material. I'd guess that it's the most extensive we've seen from your country, which has such a long history with horsemanship- and of course you guys make such wonderful 'English' tack.

[jan]

Hallo Nicole,

Yes all the equipment is original, exept some parts of the Zaumzeug 22 that are new made and the stirrup straps, the Heer uniforms are also repro's.
I enjoyed reading your rapport of the meeting in Pilsen, good to see some riders and a radfahrer

Jan

[Reiter]

PS: Thanks Nicole for joining us and providing so much interesting material. I'd guess that it's the most extensive we've seen from your country, which has such a long history with horsemanship- and of course you guys make such wonderful 'English' tack.

I was long time on search for information about cavalry of other nations, so I am glad to be here and find them!

Yes all the equipment is original, exept some parts of the Zaumzeug 22 that are new made and the stirrup straps, the Heer uniforms are also repro's.

Thats great! Do you have more pictures like that? Or somebody else?

I enjoyed reading your rapport of the meeting in Pilsen, good to see some riders and a radfahrer

It was the best day I ever had! Only our cyclist was somewhat tired...

Horrido!

Nicole

[Reiter]

I don´t know, if you have diskused this stirrup before.

They were used in the old army, in the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht. You see the openings of attachment for the Lance (Lanzenschuh).
The Packtasche is not German - it belongs to the Austrian saddle on page 1.

Horrido!

Nicole

[Dave J.]

Nicole,

Do you have and example of the Lance, and Lanzenschuh, that would have been used?

[Reiter]

Hi Dave,

please take a look at this picture (rider with gasmask) in the Panzer-Archiv http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 0889#70889 On the stirrup you see Lanzenschuh and in the riders hand Lance M93. After 1927, when the lance where put down (auf Kammer gelegt) the stirrups where used on, we say "aufgebraucht" like every piece of equipment in the german army, for example Armeesattel 89, Zaumzeug 16, Stahlhelm M18 and so on.
Here we have a diskussion about the lance: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... &start=345

Horrido!

Nicole

[Pat Holscher]

Nicole,

Do you have and example of the Lance, and Lanzenschuh, that would have been used?

Dave, we have a thread, somewhere, depicting the photo that Nicole also referred to of the WWI German lancer. And we have a few here and there. I note that Pazner Archiv has some great lancer photos, and I'm going to start a thread shortly on German lances and lancers.

[dltrial]

I was considering buying an armeesattel 25, and in reading about the saddle found that it came in 5 sizes with number 5 being the widest. The natural assumption is that number 1 is the narrowest and each higher number is a bit wider.

However I found a review of the saddle on the German Ebay. Here is a passage from it, followed by a translation from Google translate:

Laut dem Buch "Feldartillerie" von 1904 gibt es folgende Größen :
Nr. 1 für schmalgerippte Pferde mit geradem Rücken
Nr. 2 für schmalgerippte Pferde mit gebogenem Rücken
Nr. 3 für breitgerippte Pferde mit geradem Rücken
Nr. 4 für breitgerippte Pferde mit gebogenem Rücken
Nr. 5 für senkrückige Pferde

According to the book "Field Artillery" from 1904, there are the following sizes:
No. 1 for schmalgerippte horses with a straight back
No. 2 for schmalgerippte horse with curved spine
No. 3 for breitgerippte horses with a straight back
No. 4 for breitgerippte horse with curved spine
No. 5 for horses senkrückige

What I infer from this is that Numbers 1 and 2 are the same width of tree and that numbers 3 and 4 are the same width of tree, the difference between the pairs is the front to back curvature of the tree. In this case both 3 and 4 would be medium tree saddles and only 5 would be a wide tree.

I cannot myself translate the untranslated words so I am not certain. Could someone who is familiar with these saddles clear this up? Also if someone knows, what is the angle between the points of the tree for the 4 and 5? What I mean is that the angle between the points of the tree on medium tree english saddles is about 90 degree (45 deg to the center line). My horses would require a considerably wider saddle.

By the way the said review states that there was also a size 6 produced in some years that was even wider. Is that true and are any ever seen?

Derek

[Dpuckey]

Nicole,

I have a pair (or nearly so) of those stirrup irons. Oddly they came with a 1912 hinged UP saddle. One is stamped Mole & Co, a British maker, and the other Linden & Funke. One must be a pre WW1 export from UK.