Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[roy elderkin]

Ron

Ken Flower was an exceptional man, and highly regarded, he did a lot of work in the gathering of inteligence, for the Rhodesian Forces.

His work with Frelimo and the Mozambique situation, are well documented and factual. Which played a major roler in our cross border ops, and hot persuit.

Other than that I have no further comments.


Roy

[Ron Smith]

Thanks Roy

[Pat Holscher]

I just bumped up the thread on Portuguese Dragoons in Angola. In re-reading it, I realized that thread predated this one, and one of the posters asked for information on the Greys, and I replied that we didn't have much (which at that time we didn't).

Now, of course, things have changed. This is the most popular thread on the website, and it is a great wealth of information, thanks to Grey's veterans, and most particularly thanks to Roy.

Given as there's always new participants here, I thought I should bump this thread up, having just bumped up the Portuguese Dragoons threads, so that I didn't create any confusion. We do indeed have Grey's information, and may be the single most significant source of information on the Greys (thanks to folks like Roy and Gary).

[Pat Holscher]

I thought I'd retitle this thread, as it covers more than just the saddles. Originally, the title was only "Rhodesian McClellans".

Also, I need to clean up the code a bit so that it reads a little easier, some of that having been made a little difficult at the time the forum was switched over. We'll get to it, however.

[Pat Holscher]

Roy provided this very interesting photo of "the Jacaranda Festival". I'll have to have Roy explain the tradition here.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Once a year, the City of Salisbury Rhodesia would hold what was called "The Jacaranda Festival" it was when the Jacaranda Tree's were in full blossom. On this perticular year it was decided to honour all the service personel, who were on active service. It was decided that Grey's should dress up knights and carry the shields depicting all the Regts of the Rhodesian Army, and those who served in them.

The detachment consisted of the Training Wing Grey's, as every one else was on deployment. That horse in front some may recognise as Frazer my horse, with myself riding it. It was a way in which the City, gave recognition to the courage and in cases the loss of those serving with Rhodesian Army in warlike operations.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
Photograph courtesy of Gary Snelling:

This is a picture of Trooper Darnie Darvel having a smoke break. Now when we stopped there were insects called Mapani flies which swarmed all over man or beast. Smoke kept them away. So you can see the horse has a cigarette as well. I really think it was a pose for the camera!!

Pat

Pretty amusing photograph.

On the camouflage, the thought of green camo for a horse is a fairly startling thought!

Out of curiosity, is the pattern of cap here the same as the French Lizard cap?

Pat

I'm sure this has been answered in this thread before, but was it difficult riding with this gear on your upper torso? It looks like it should be a bit of a hindrance.

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, this i you, isn't it?


Oscar

Roy, related to the question above, I note you're not wearing a harness or suspenders in this photo. Was the vest, etc. a later addition.

Again, I'm likely repeating myself, but this question occurred to me the other day.

[roy elderkin]

Hi Pat

I had my own set of chest webbing, as it was refered to, but on the occasion that this photo was taken I was training recruits, and demonstrating the use of the rifle in a mounted situation.

We developed the chest webbing, based on the US combat jacket used I believe in Vietnam. The modifications were that it had to carry, water bottles and carriers, the amo pouches had to carry the the FN magazine, as well as provision for a radio pouch on the back and other pockets, to store other items of equipment.

Unlike the original jacket, it was light weight and air text to stop sweating. The water bottles were carried higher, and further to the rear of the jacket to stop them impacting on the kidneys. Even when fully loaded it was light and quick to put on, without any straps of fastenings other than velcro strips for quick release. In all it was ideal for a mounted soldier, and did not impede his movements.

On the question of camo for horses, we did experiment with vegitable dyes such as Zebra stripes, and green shading. They worked well, but the down side was that they dissapeared with the animals natural hair growth, so they were frequently repainted.

Roy

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Hi Pat

I had my own set of chest webbing, as it was refered to, but on the occasion that this photo was taken I was training recruits, and demonstrating the use of the rifle in a mounted situation.

We developed the chest webbing, based on the US combat jacket used I believe in Vietnam. The modifications were that it had to carry, water bottles and carriers, the amo pouches had to carry the the FN magazine, as well as provision for a radio pouch on the back and other pockets, to store other items of equipment.

Unlike the original jacket, it was light weight and air text to stop sweating. The water bottles were carried higher, and further to the rear of the jacket to stop them impacting on the kidneys. Even when fully loaded it was light and quick to put on, without any straps of fastenings other than velcro strips for quick release. In all it was ideal for a mounted soldier, and did not impede his movements.

Thanks Roy. It looks like it would inhibit movement, but obviously it didn't. Very interesting.

On the question of camo for horses, we did experiment with vegitable dyes such as Zebra stripes, and green shading. They worked well, but the down side was that they dissapeared with the animals natural hair growth, so they were frequently repainted.

Roy

Very interesting again. Was this used on a frequent basis?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

No it was only used, when an operation was being conducted, such as cross border ops and or we were conducting or seting up observation posts.

Other than that it was merely experimental, especialy with light coloured horses, greys etc.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

No it was only used, when an operation was being conducted, such as cross border ops and or we were conducting or seting up observation posts.

Other than that it was merely experimental, especialy with light coloured horses, greys etc.

Roy

Roy, I don't know that we've ever discussed how mounted infantry in this counter insurgency war utilized observation posts. If you care to, can you elaborate on that. Did that lean on any much earlier Boer War experience by any chance, or was it a system developed in the war itself?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

We learned our techniques from both sources, but the one thing that helped us was the ability to set up, quick OPs, when circumstances required us to.Such as suspect villages or areas, these were not INTEL driven but on observation. Soldiers were taught field craft, but many were linguists and and bush craft as part of their background. To many something that did seem out of place would go on by,but with others it would set alarm bells ringing. They were at home with the enviroment, so they did not have to be taught.

It was under these circumstances, that we were able to set up quick OPs with some sucess not always. If you require further information I would happy to answer.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Having read my previous post that perhaps I should have given more information, so I will try again.

As most readers will know there are certain types of OPs, those that are INTEL established, and those governed by observation, the Grey's operated the latter. These are termed fixed and static, where control is required at all times such as borders etc. Intel led are those which little information is known, there fore a OP is set, Selous Scouts were past masters at this type and would spend days or even weeks in an area gathering information.

Where Grey's differed was that during the course of a patrol, they would come across a base camp, after evalaluation the troop would either find that it is a very old camp, or very new in which case the spoor would still be good and tracking would commence. The other criteria is how close to the border is it, in which case it is either a deployment camp, or a rest and debreefing area before going back across the border, tracks and other signs would indicate which it was. Those comeing into the country were obviously of concern, and if time was okay immediate follow up was required.

One of the things that had to be looked, was to establish if it is a group or single person, it made a differance to the next part. If it was a single person then most likely it was a Political Commisar heading for the villages, with the latest edition of the Thoughts of Chairman Mao. Because most soldiers, are not brought up with the more rural African, neither do they understand the language or customs, therefore they have a tendency to overlook the signs in villages. But those that have this knowledge can spot it quickly, one can go into a village following tracks, but identifying them is something else. So an astute commander will have a good look around and continue on his way. Now having left the area he will look for good cover or high ground, and set up a OP, he would then send his best soldiers on foot to observe the village, and spot the pc. These would be the linguists, who can watch and listnen, having established who is who the area can be surrounded, and this is where the horse comes into its own, silently moving in without being detected they can secure the area whilst a team goes in and lifts the pc.

One of the things we did learn from the Boers, was how to set up an OP, you should approach your set up from further back, that is you should come into it by the back door, under the cover of the hill or Kopje so that you arrive unseen and at dusk, so that you are in position just before or slightly after dark. Your horses are placed under or just below your position, so that they are easily mounted should the need arise, and waiting for an early morning contact. This is of importance when dealing with a group, who tend to eat and bed down outside of the village, the signs are African woman going into the bush with their pots of either food or water. To the un observant this would normal but it is not and it is a give away.

I hope this gives you an insite, if you have any further questions just ask.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy,

Wow, absolutely fascinating! Your descriptions really give a vivid picture! This also gives an insight into modern mounted operations that I think would be wholly missed if not described by somebody who had experienced it.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Thank you for your comments, I am sure that like Africa there are parts of the US where there is a rarified atmospher there fore from a vantage point one can see far without the use of binos. Any movement below or in the distance can be spotted, and reacted to.

One of the other uses Grey's were put to was the protection of listening posts set up by signals searching for radio traffic. If signals picked up radio traffic within our vicinity, we could react to it, and investigate. There was a signal station based not far from us in Chipinga, they were listening for traffic comeing or going from Mozambique. The signal section were using a closed down mining complex, they felt at home and perfectly protected here, as they used to have nocturnal visitors in the shape of hippos, who would come out to graze at night around the complex from a nearby pool. Even the most ardent ter would not come near the place, hippos are better than any guard or dog when it comes to protection.

So at least there was an occasional lighter side to life in the bush, apart from war.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

Thank you for your comments, I am sure that like Africa there are parts of the US where there is a rarified atmospher there fore from a vantage point one can see far without the use of binos. Any movement below or in the distance can be spotted, and reacted to.

Yes indeed. In many regions of the west there are regions like that, where the field of viability is huge. That much have been very much a feature of Plains Indian warfare. And that likely explains part of the reason that, in spite of the problems that horse fatigue caused, the cavalry remained a necessary force on the plains. Reacting to observations from a great distance would itself require some element of mobility.

One of the other uses Grey's were put to was the protection of listening posts set up by signals searching for radio traffic. If signals picked up radio traffic within our vicinity, we could react to it, and investigate. There was a signal station based not far from us in Chipinga, they were listening for traffic comeing or going from Mozambique. The signal section were using a closed down mining complex, they felt at home and perfectly protected here, as they used to have nocturnal visitors in the shape of hippos, who would come out to graze at night around the complex from a nearby pool. Even the most ardent ter would not come near the place, hippos are better than any guard or dog when it comes to protection.

So at least there was an occasional lighter side to life in the bush, apart from war.

Very interesting again, and a fascinating example of the combination of modern electronics in warfare, and the horse in retained mobility.

[kfr]

re camo horses in greys scouts sinioa jan 1980

[kfr]

shorty again

[roy elderkin]

Wow Welcome another Grey's Scout. There are not many of us around, and look forward to any input you have, to fill in the gaps.

Roy