Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[roy elderkin]

Max

Whilst I am very happy to respond to questions, which I can reply to there are some questions that I will not. However on this occasion I will reply in the strongest terms. First of all the word "Goffel" is derogartory and offensive and means a person of mixed colour, and should not be used and comeing from Mike Williams is hardly suprising.

He has compounded his knowledge or lack of it by saying that protection units were sent over to Grey's after they were disbanded, this was not the case. The protection troops were disbanded at the end of the war. I have not had much contact with them, therefore the drugs ref I cannot comment on.

Kerry

I thank you for your comments, I will try when ever possible to reply to your questions, however in some instances I may not be able to by this means, if however there is a question would you please go through Pat Todd or Joe, and I will be happy to respond.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, when the Gray's went into Mozambique, as has noted to have occurred several times in this thread, did you have to change the nature of your tactics and deployment? The reason I ask is that I'm curious if there was a perceived need to possibly react against a more conventional army, and potentially even aircraft, or if it was the case that the Mozambique forces were regarded as fairly insignificant in the mix.

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

If I may I would like to answer your questions in two parts firstly historical, that way it will be easy understand the second part. Which is extreemly important when you understand why we were able to operate in some parts of Mozambique, with impunity. I hope this does not sound arrogant on my part, but because of the historical dimensions of the war, enabled to do this.

When the war in Mozambique broke out or [Portugeese East Africa] as it was known then, the Portugeese were fighting against FRELIMO, which was the main group at the end of the war, they allowed Mugaby's faction to set up base camps inside Mozambique. Most of thse camps were 30 to 40 miles inside the border, which gave them easy access to launche raids into Rhodesia.

A joint excersize by the Rhodesian Government and the South African's, created and supplied a rival faction known as the MLA [Mozambique Liberation Army]. This was done for two purposes, firstly to protect SA's Cabora Bassa Hydro Electric supplys to South Africa's Gold Reef . Secondly the Rhodesian Govt used them to distabilise, the area known as the Beira Pipe Line and railway line. East along the Rhodesian Border down as far as the Zambizi Escarpment, and Kariba Dam. This then had the effect of creating a civil war, inside Mozambique, the MLA were able to tie down the the Mozambique Regular Army. By this act we were able to attack Mugaby's base camps with little or no interferance.

This is where I can now answer the second part of your questions, but I going to have to break of for a while, because of the length my reply or run out of space.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

In its early days Grey's as far as Mozambique was concerened, was to patrol along its borders, which it did very effectively. It was not until there was a major incursion into Mozambique, when Rhod SF forces attacked a very large ter base camp at Chimoi, some 40 miles inside Mozambique. Grey's were asked if we could supply a troop, and pack animals in support of a mortar troop, which we did taking the mortars and bombs in and bringing them out again. Army was suprised at the flexability and our ability to be self supporting.

The Mozambique Army had no air force to speak off or the the ability to take on the Rhod Air Force. But did have ground troops that could have made life difficult, however we had a converted Dack similar to those used by yourselfs. Which was heavly armed and used as a command and control centre, they spotted Mozambique troops approaching, chewed them up and they made no further effort to support the base camp.

Grey's made further incusrsions into Mozambique, either on follow ups or searching for ter camps, but did not go beyond the limit of their. endurance, so that there was no need for resupply, and could not be compromised. By the time the M

[roy elderkin]

By the time the Mozambique forces could react to our presence, we had done what we had to do and returned across the border. But not at any time were we able to operate deep into Mozambique, without additional support. But opperated in a safe haven close to the border. There was only one other place either on the border or inside it that we could only operate for very short periods of time. That was in the Zambezi Valley which is tsete fly country, a killer of both humans and animals. But only for very short periods of time could we go in and come out again very quickly.

But the further west along the border we went, there were no such restrictions only tactical and logisticaly. Other than that we operated no differantly, than we did elswhere.

The only time there was resistance in a conventional way, was at Villa Salazaar on the border when Mozambique Troops attacked us on the border, we were working with the Rhod Armoured Car Regt, at the time on a joint exercise, a few well aimed shots from an Eland 90 mm armoured car put a stop to that and we went in and mopped up the rest.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat

If I may I would like to answer your questions in two parts firstly historical, that way it will be easy understand the second part. Which is extremely important when you understand why we were able to operate in some parts of Mozambique, with impunity. I hope this does not sound arrogant on my part, but because of the historical dimensions of the war, enabled to do this.

When the war in Mozambique broke out or [Portuguese East Africa] as it was known then, the Portuguese were fighting against FRELIMO, which was the main group at the end of the war, they allowed Mugaby's faction to set up base camps inside Mozambique. Most of thse camps were 30 to 40 miles inside the border, which gave them easy access to launche raids into Rhodesia.

A joint excersize by the Rhodesian Government and the South African's, created and supplied a rival faction known as the MLA [Mozambique Liberation Army]. This was done for two purposes, firstly to protect SA's Cabora Bassa Hydro Electric supplys to South Africa's Gold Reef . Secondly the Rhodesian Govt used them to distabilise, the area known as the Beira Pipe Line and railway line. East along the Rhodesian Border down as far as the Zambizi Escarpment, and Kariba Dam. This then had the effect of creating a civil war, inside Mozambique, the MLA were able to tie down the the Mozambique Regular Army. By this act we were able to attack Mugaby's base camps with little or no interferance.

This is where I can now answer the second part of your questions, but I going to have to break of for a while, because of the length my reply or run out of space.

Roy

Did this civil war break out during the time period in which Portugal still had a role in Mozambique?

I guess, to expand on that, I know that Portugal came to use mounted troops in Angola, but I presume they never attempted that in Mozambique, is that correct?

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
By the time the Mozambique forces could react to our presence, we had done what we had to do and returned across the border. But not at any time were we able to operate deep into Mozambique, without additional support. But opperated in a safe haven close to the border. There was only one other place either on the border or inside it that we could only operate for very short periods of time. That was in the Zambezi Valley which is tsete fly country, a killer of both humans and animals. But only for very short periods of time could we go in and come out again very quickly.

But the further west along the border we went, there were no such restrictions only tactical and logisticaly. Other than that we operated no differantly, than we did elswhere.

The only time there was resistance in a conventional way, was at Villa Salazaar on the border when Mozambique Troops attacked us on the border, we were working with the Rhod Armoured Car Regt, at the time on a joint exercise, a few well aimed shots from an Eland 90 mm armoured car put a stop to that and we went in and mopped up the rest.

Roy

Roy, thank you very much. Very interesting information.

I wasn't aware that the Gray's worked in coordination with motorized forces, such as an armored car regiment. That always sounds like a difficult proposition, but certainly both the Germans and the Soviets proved it could work well in WWII. Your experience in southern Africa must have been of a different character. Did joint operations work well?

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

To answer your first question, the MLA was set up after Portugal withdrew from Mozambique, and they did not use horses in the country other than Angola.

To your second question, it was one the rare occasions where Grey's worked along with a mechanized unit. On this occassion Grey's were working in advance of Armoured Cars along the border, who were at that time carrying out a simultaneous exercise. They picked up the contact signal, and came into support us, and ended up as a joint exercise, which worked very well. This was the second time that they were to come, and give us support, the other was when a Troop came across a very large group of ters getting ready to deploy. On this occassion Grey's attacked the group, riding straight into them, captured ters said that they thought that it was a herd of elephants, comeing towards them. Until they realised it was mounted infantry they were overwhelmed and a large number were killed and captured. Again Armoured cars picked up the contact signal, they were opperating nearby, and came into support us.

From this one contact, the Regt earned its reputation from the ters. That even a small troop could inflict so much damage on them, in one action. From this Grey's had the highest kill rate, of any other Regt in the Rhod Army, in one single contact. Again with the mechanized support, working in conjuction with us it produced the desired results. But our deployment tactics would change after this, having gleaned from intel that the ters had also changed their tactics, as a result of this action.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat

To answer your first question, the MLA was set up after Portugal withdrew from Mozambique, and they did not use horses in the country other than Angola.

To your second question, it was one the rare occasions where Grey's worked along with a mechanized unit. On this occassion Grey's were working in advance of Armoured Cars along the border, who were at that time carrying out a simultaneous exercise. They picked up the contact signal, and came into support us, and ended up as a joint exercise, which worked very well. This was the second time that they were to come, and give us support, the other was when a Troop came across a very large group of ters getting ready to deploy. On this occassion Grey's attacked the group, riding straight into them, captured ters said that they thought that it was a herd of elephants, comeing towards them. Until they realised it was mounted infantry they were overwhelmed and a large number were killed and captured. Again Armoured cars picked up the contact signal, they were opperating nearby, and came into support us.

From this one contact, the Regt earned its reputation from the ters. That even a small troop could inflict so much damage on them, in one action. From this Grey's had the highest kill rate, of any other Regt in the Rhod Army, in one single contact. Again with the mechanized support, working in conjuction with us it produced the desired results. But our deployment tactics would change after this, having gleaned from intel that the ters had also changed their tactics, as a result of this action.

Roy

Roy, as always, thank you for the very insightful post.

Pat

[Byron Gertenbach]

Hi Roy, I haven't read the entire topic but I see you were once a member of Grey's Scouts. Im intensely interested in this especially photos etc as my father was a Corporal in the Scouts during the Rhodesian war. Cpl Andries Jacobus Gertenbach, not sure if you know of him but if you have any photos and such of the scouts etc or even information about where you were stationed etc Im sure he would find it most interesting as he is always enthusiastic to enlighten me on them when I ask and he is still closely tied to Rhodesia as most are. You may know of his best mate who was in the scouts with him, Johannes Dupri, informely known as Yogi to his friends. He was recipient of a medal for valour, unfortunately im not entirely sure what one it was but I know it was one of the highest awards available during the war. Anyway, Ive just been reading a bit of the thread and thought it would be good to find out some more info about the scouts. Cheers Byron

The only thing more accurate and deadly than enemy fire is friendly fire.

[roy elderkin]

Hi Byron

Now theres a name from the past, I remember your fathers name and its is always difficult to put a name to a face. So was he a regular or TA, this will help me, as there were so many I cant always remeber everyone, also what Squadron was he with A, B or C.

He may or not remember me, it depends when he was with Grey's, between 78 and 80 I was not with Grey's but returned in 80 he may have left by then. I started with Grey's in 1975, as the Chief Equitation Instructor, I think if you read through the whole of the Grey's thread that is 14 pages, it is full of information and photos, that will interest yourself and Andries.

This forum contains more information about Grey's than any other site, and it is worth the read. In fact the forum is the only one that keeps the name of the Regt alive, when it has been forgotten by many others.

I think "Yogi" either recieved the bronze or silver Cross, but I am not sure.

You may if you wish contact via my E Mail address, either of the administrators will give it to you.

Humba Garshley Roy

[Byron Gertenbach]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Hi Byron

Now theres a name from the past, I remember your fathers name and its is always difficult to put a name to a face. So was he a regular or TA, this will help me, as there were so many I cant always remeber everyone, also what Squadron was he with A, B or C.

He may or not remember me, it depends when he was with Grey's, between 78 and 80 I was not with Grey's but returned in 80 he may have left by then. I started with Grey's in 1975, as the Chief Equitation Instructor, I think if you read through the whole of the Grey's thread that is 14 pages, it is full of information and photos, that will interest yourself and Andries.

This forum contains more information about Grey's than any other site, and it is worth the read. In fact the forum is the only one that keeps the name of the Regt alive, when it has been forgotten by many others.

I think "Yogi" either recieved the bronze or silver Cross, but I am not sure.

You may if you wish contact via my E Mail address, either of the administrators will give it to you.

Humba Garshley Roy

Yeah I believe his last name is du Preez lol, Ive been trying to find out what he got for the past 2 hours. You probably wouldn't have known my dad personally, I believe he joined either at the end of 77' or the beginning of 78', and was discharged in 80'. Ill try to find out what squadron he was in, I know he was a reg,he was an instructor and I think he may have done some medic duties as well. He tried out for the SAS at one stage as well and could have made it if he hadn't of followed his mates, one of his main regrets so he tells me(one of his many stories too). Ill get him on here actually, i think he'd be pleased to chat with someone from those days, especially one from the scouts as he holds it in high regards. He still has his old stable belt and beret and he even still wears his old Grey Scouts drab green shirt and army issue jumper on occasions. Now that I think about it he may have been C squadron, as I seem to recall seeing it on his Squadron photo, although don't quote me on that as I haven't looked at it for ages. Anyway I'll get in contact with him and get him to join the forums Im sure he'd love the read. Cheers

The only thing more accurate and deadly than enemy fire is friendly fire.

[Pat Holscher]

Byron, welcome to the forum. I hope your father will stop in as well. We've been very pleased to be able to serve as a location for the preservation of this information, and have been very honored to have several Greys veterans, particularly Cpt. Elderkin, participate here.

Pat

[Byron Gertenbach]

Thanks Pat, yeah I'll definately try and get my dad on here as I reckon he'd be well interested, although he's in Aus so the time difference is a bit off, so yer, but it is a forum so it shouldn't be that much of a problem. He had another mate in the forces too, Andy Smith though I don't think he was a scout though, I think he was either light infrantry or recon, not entirely sure, Dad will know. I think dad has a few photos to add as well. So Ill make sure he puts them up. Btw Roy how do I get your email from the Admins?

The only thing more accurate and deadly than enemy fire is friendly fire.

[Byron Gertenbach]

Ok sent an Email to my dad letting him know about the topic so he should come on here sometime, if he reads my post he'll know why I invited him.

The only thing more accurate and deadly than enemy fire is friendly fire.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Byron Gertenbach
Thanks Pat, yeah I'll definitely try and get my dad on here as I reckon he'd be well interested, although he's in Aus so the time difference is a bit off, so yer, but it is a forum so it shouldn't be that much of a problem. He had another mate in the forces too, Andy Smith though I don't think he was a scout though, I think he was either light infantry or recon, not entirely sure, Dad will know. I think dad has a few photos to add as well. So Ill make sure he puts them up. Btw Roy how do I get your email from the Admins?

The only thing more accurate and deadly than enemy fire is friendly fire.

We'll look forward to hopefully hearing from him.

Pat

[Cougar]

I'm interested in Rhodesia. I already know the "Who, When, Why, and Where". I'm more interested in the "How and Equipment Used" of Rhodesia's Army. I'd like to know----1) What were the medical kits like (troop and individual) and what was in them? 2) Can you tell me about the rations? What were the contents, and did they come in tins, tubes, packets, ect. I've heard they were like the British rations used during the wars in Malaya and Borneo. Any comments? 3) I've read about the 4 day ration cube for horses. What was it made of and how big was it? Is anyone still manufacturing anything like it? 4) I've seen the pictures of Greys with their FN rifles. I've heard some Rhodesian soldiers (No unit was given.) liked to bring their own firearms on patrols (Thompson SMGs, Colt .45 automatics, ect.) Were they allowed to or did they have to use standard issue firearms. 5) Other than canteens, did they have waterbags? If they did, how much did they hold? (Paragraph) I read the book, "Major Mike". Save your time and money. A better title would have been, "I Was Rhodesia's Last Hope". (Paragraph) If anyone has any answers to my questions or more information as to the stuff they carried "in saddlebags or pouches", please let me know. Cougar

[roy elderkin]

Cougar

First of all let me thank you for your interest, and welcome to the forum. Before I try and answer as many questions that I can, I must emphasise that a lot of the equipment that Grey's used and what they carried, was at the discretion of who ever was Sqn Com at that time, each one would have had their perticular fads and fansy's. But equpment was standard, and could not be changed, neither was the weight factor, and horse feed, that was strictly adhered to. But in other respects, the Sqn Com had control, such as patrol durations resupply and formations. In all I can only give some of the information that you require, when I was a A Sqn Com, and I would allow or not.

Much of Grey's training was not only based on lessons learnt, in Malaya and Borneo, but on the Boar War and a great deal on SAS training, as a number of our instructors were former SAS NCOs, who brought with them field craft, and tactics. So bear with me when I try to answer your qestions.

1. Medical, all soldiers were equiped with a surgical field dressing, and an ampual of morphine, or a derivative which was carried round the neck, along with his dog tags. Initialy it was a glass ampual, this was later replaced by a one shot injection, which ment we did not have to carry syringes. Any serious casualtys would be casivac, the base camp who have a medic and a limited amount of surgical supplys, sufficiant to treat minor wounds and ailments, but always carried malaria tablets, and water purifiers.

2 The Rhodesian Army were issued, with a 24 hour dry ration known without affection as a rat pack. This was issued to each soldier, and depending on the number days of the patrol he would carry that number of rats. Because it came in a cardboard box it was quite impractical to carry, so soldiers would discard most of the contents and carry only what they considered, edible, although a number of soldiers would carry their own version, such as pro neotro a highly nutritious form of porrige, which was mixed with water. Oxo cubes another item carried, and sometimes biltong or jerky as you would know it. But the contents of the box would consist of dry milk powder, a tube of butter and sometimes a tube of cream cheese, three dog biscuits, a sachet of sauce or other mix, tea bag and coffee powder, sugar and salt, a salt tablet and multi vitamin tablet. And the the final insult a tin of something, loosly described as edibal, such as egg in frankfurters, beef stew with patatoes, curry and rice or corned beef, pork lunchion meat. In the early days we were treated to such luxary's as dried fruit, which was a great treat and came from SA, but in the latter stages of the war we did not get any. African sodiers were given some of the above ingredients, but also had maize meal, which is their staple diet. As you can see that it was not anything special, I used to take the dried fruit, oxo cubes, and my wife would make up sachet of various soups, I also used to take a tin of corned beef, and always carried a metal sheet, 3 inches by 3 inches and a quarter of an inch deep, which I would put on top of my gas cooker, cut of slices of corned beef and fry it on the tin, using the tubed butter to cook it on. This was either carried in the saddle bags, or the rear vest pocket. Fresh meals were served in the base camps, when troops came in from patrol.

3 Comments, the dry rations were very basic, and not very good quality, but that is what you got and either ate it or took you own. Whether it was a design from Malaya or Borneo, I dont know but it would not suprise me. But in base camp fresh rations were very good, and well cooked.

4 The cubes designed by us for Grey's, were marketed under the name of MIU Cubes, this orginated when the Regt was the Mounted Infantry Unit. And consisted of a rolled cube about an inch long, it consisted of oats, maize,salt and mixed with bran and a sugar cane residu malasses which bound the cube together. These were carried in the saddle bags, sufficiant for what ever no days of the patrol would last.

5 Grey's carried standard infantry weapons, army issue, allthough we were issued with funnies ie shot guns, uzi and when we could get our hands on them AKs, RPGs etc. Other Regts sometimes carried personel weapons buthese were more often than not in the TA units.

6 In regard to water the only water we carried were the water bottles, although we carried on the front of vehicles hesian water containers, which were cooled by the bag weeping and air flow. I had one hanging outside my tent, from which I used to fill my water bottles before going out. Base camps were either suppled by bowser, or if we were camped on a farm bore holes. We would only operate in areas were there was a known source of water for the horses and men, if not it had to be bowsered in on resupply.

Saddle bags contained spare rations, horse cubes and where they were issued a canvas feed bag which doubled up as a water bucket, and if permitted a set of spare clothes. Depending on the time of year jerseys and combat jackets were carried, and a light weight sleeping bag, as well as a gas cooker. No extra personal kit should be taken. I and a number of soldiers, would go four or five days without change and often would get into a river fully clothed and washed everything, the African Sun would dry you out in no time at all, even in winter during the day.

Ihope this has answered some of your questions, if not aske and I will try and answer them.

Roy

[Larry Emrick]

Roy, Cougar: Those are the kinds of questions and answers that I would dearly like to see from earlier conflicts. Despite all the reading I have done I have very little sense of the kinds of things of which Roy speaks. Much of what I read has come either from official accounts, or soldier's diaries, neither of which provide much of a detailed picture of basic, daily life of a soldier, mounted or otherwise. I guess it was all so familiar to them that it was not considered "newsworthy". So keep those recollections coming Roy, for us, and perhaps for others who in a generation or so will be pursuing these interests. Larry

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Larry Emrick
Roy, Cougar: Those are the kinds of questions and answers that I would dearly like to see from earlier conflicts. Despite all the reading I have done I have very little sense of the kinds of things of which Roy speaks. Much of what I read has come either from official accounts, or soldier's diaries, neither of which provide much of a detailed picture of basic, daily life of a soldier, mounted or otherwise. I guess it was all so familiar to them that it was not considered "newsworthy". So keep those recollections coming Roy, for us, and perhaps for others who in a generation or so will be pursuing these interests. Larry

I'd echo Larry on that. Information on this type is sadly lacking on most conflicts. It means that, very often, we have a very poor idea of what the ins and outs of soldiering was really like. This information is very valuable.

Pat