DI Examples

[Trooper]

Pat,
CW Corps badges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_Corps_Badges

http://www.nps.gov/gett/gettkidz/corpsbadge.htm

http://www.civilwarmysteries.com/corps_badges.htm

Spanish American War:
http://www.wheelerplantation.org/span_am_flag.htm

Hope this helps a little.

Dušan

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Trooper</i>
<br />Pat,
CW Corps badges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_Corps_Badges

http://www.nps.gov/gett/gettkidz/corpsbadge.htm

http://www.civilwarmysteries.com/corps_badges.htm

Spanish American War:
http://www.wheelerplantation.org/span_am_flag.htm

Hope this helps a little.

Dušan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Dusan.

Before you and Todd mentioned it, I had no idea they had corps badges in the Spanish American War.

Pat

[Todd]

Fine example of Span-Am era cavalry corps badge.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6627019063

[Pat Holscher]

It's intersting how these Civil War era badges, and the Spanish American War ones, were at the Corps level. In WWI we see division specific unit patches appear, and then after WWI we see DI arrive. Of course, some branch insignia went down to the small unit level well before that.

Still, it's intersting that the first concern of identifying units within the Army was geared toward identifying corps, with divisions identified by color.

Pat

[stablesgt]

The 123rd Cavalry shown on Page 2 was a Kentucky NG regiment.

[deddygetty]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />It's intersting how these Civil War era badges, and the Spanish American War ones, were at the Corps level. In WWI we see division specific unit patches appear, and then after WWI we see DI arrive. Of course, some branch insignia went down to the small unit level well before that.

Still, it's intersting that the first concern of identifying units within the Army was geared toward identifying corps, with divisions identified by color.

Pat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The 99th Cav Recon Troop DI I posted earlier was one of the few DI's for a unit of that size (144), awarded to the troop for their WW II combat record. The irony of it was, the unit was deactivated after the war, and the troops never saw the DI.

A few years ago I was browsing a local military surplus store, looking for DI's, rank and branch insignia, etc., for a shadow box I was planning to honor my deceased dad. There were several large display cases on the wall with hundreds of pins, seperated by service. To my amazement, in the Air Force section, were ten DI's for the 99th Cav Recon Troop. I bought them all and sent some to surviving troop vets, and took the rest to the 50th and final reunion of the troop and presented them to the three remaining members that were able to attend, keeping one for dad's shadow box of course.



Don't attract gunfire. It irritates the people around you.

[Michael Page]

EDIT: disregard

[dallas Φ]

According to the December 1973 Armor-Cavalry DI Catalog published by ASMIC, there was a DI for the 1st Armored Car Squadron. It was listed as "C" Class which meant that it was worn by the unit but was not approved by The Institute of Heraldry or its predecessors. The latest Armor-Cavalry Catalog published in April 1999 shows the same DI as being for the 1st Separate Cavalry Squadron, a unit of the Rhode Island NG in the period from 1922 to 1939 and also being "C" Class. This indicates to me that the piece was cataloged erroneously in the 1973 catalog. If anyone has any better information I would like to see it. Regarding the SSI worn by the 1st AC Sqdn, I have a copy of a requisition from the QM of the 1st Cav. Div. to QM at Ft. Sam Houston, TX dated Oct. 29, 1934 requesting SSI for the various units of the 1st Cav. Div. A Type 6 SSI was specified for Ordnance, Signal Corps, Medical Troops and Troop A, 1st Armored Car Sqdn. In the letter dated January 5, 1922 from the Adjutant General to the Quartermaster General approving the 1st Cavalry Division SSI, the following is noted: Ordnance, Signal Corps and Medical Troops wore the SSI with black horse's head and the bend similar to that for Engineers which called for the bend with a white stripe one-tenth of an inch wide on either side of the bend. I can't find any thing regarding the colors for the Type 6 SSI but I am guessing that the 1st AC Sqdn wore the yellow shield with black head and a bend with a narrow stripe on either side but I don't know the colors.
Dallas
Dallas

[deddygetty]

Originally posted by dallas
According to the December 1973 Armor-Cavalry DI Catalog published by ASMIC, there was a DI for the 1st Armored Car Squadron. It was listed as "C" Class which meant that it was worn by the unit but was not approved by The Institute of Heraldry or its predecessors. The latest Armor-Cavalry Catalog published in April 1999 shows the same DI as being for the 1st Separate Cavalry Squadron, a unit of the Rhode Island NG in the period from 1922 to 1939 and also being "C" Class. This indicates to me that the piece was cataloged erroneously in the 1973 catalog. If anyone has any better information I would like to see it. Regarding the SSI worn by the 1st AC Sqdn, I have a copy of a requisition from the QM of the 1st Cav. Div. to QM at Ft. Sam Houston, TX dated Oct. 29, 1934 requesting SSI for the various units of the 1st Cav. Div. A Type 6 SSI was specified for Ordnance, Signal Corps, Medical Troops and Troop A, 1st Armored Car Sqdn. In the letter dated January 5, 1922 from the Adjutant General to the Quartermaster General approving the 1st Cavalry Division SSI, the following is noted: Ordnance, Signal Corps and Medical Troops wore the SSI with black horse's head and the bend similar to that for Engineers which called for the bend with a white stripe one-tenth of an inch wide on either side of the bend. I can't find any thing regarding the colors for the Type 6 SSI but I am guessing that the 1st AC Sqdn wore the yellow shield with black head and a bend with a narrow stripe on either side but I don't know the colors.
Dallas

I've got a book that shows 68 versions of the 1st Cavalry Division patch, but they don't go back to the days of the Armored Car Squadron. Wish I could post them, but they are copyrighted. Some of the patches listed coincide with the 1st Cav DI's posted by Pat. The bend with two stars is listed as Division Commander. Two versions of this one, with one having a dark border around the shield.

The blue bend is listed as HQ Troop, but there is a second version with a dark border on the shield listed as HQ & HQ Co.

The bend with one star and red horse head is listed as 1st Bde Commander.

The bend with one star and blue horse head is listed 2nd Bde Commander.

Signal Troop has 4 versions. #1 has a bend consisting of a narrow center stripe of red, two narrow white stripes, then two slightly wider red stripes on the outside. #2 has a bend consisting of a narrow center stripe of blue flanked by two narrow red stripes with two narrow blue stripes on the outside. #3 has a wide white stripe flanked by two wide red stripes. #4 has a narrow red center, flanked by two slightly wider white stripes, then two red.

Ordnance Troop has two versions, one with dark border, one without. It shows a yellow bend flanked by red stripes.

QM Troop/ QM Div Trains has 3 versions, all with white bend flanked by blue stripes.

Below are listed the different versions of the patch from the book:

STANDARD 1ST CAV DIV

COMBAT VETERAN (reversed of standard version)

A. G. BORDER [?]

DIVISION COMMANDER (x2)

HQ & HQ Co

HEADQUARTERS TROOP

ARTILLERY BDE

ENGINEER TROOP

ENGINEERS

QM TROOP (x2)

QM DIV TRAINS

AVIATION TROOP

MEDICAL TROOP (x2)

CHEMICAL SECTION[xx(]

ORDNANCE TROOP (x2)

SIGNAL TROOP (x4)

REGT COMBAT TEAM #1

1ST BDE COMMANDER (x2)

1ST BDE ARTILLERY

1ST BDE 1ST REGT (x2)

1ST BDE 2ND REGT (x2)

REGT COMBAT TEAM #2

2ND BDE COMMANDER (x2)

2ND BDE 1ST REGT (x2)

2ND BDE 2ND REGT (x2)

2ND BDE MG SQDN (x2)

REGT COMBAT TEAM #3

3RD BDE COMMANDER

3RD BDE MG SQDN

RECON

LRRP (x2)

MEDEVAC DOOR GUNNER

MEDEVAC

RASH-FAC [?]

AVIATION SECTION

603RD TANK BN

29TH ARTILLERY

LIAISON TEAM

SNIPER (x2)

HARDCORE[}:)]

DMZ

PANIC (reversed patch with horses rear instead of head)[);]

SKY TEAM

THE FIRST TEAM

VIETNAM

CHICKEN MAN

EXPERT CAVALRY MAN

AIRBORNE VIETNAM

AIRMOBILE

FLYING HORSEMAN

HONOR GUARD

MILITARY POLICE



Don't attract gunfire. It irritates the people around you.

[Michael Page]

EDIT: disregard

[stablesgt]

Mike,
Ignore the ASMIC catalog listing. Do not concern yourself with that big DUI with the dragoon and 1847 date. It has no connection to the 1st AC sqdn of the 1st Cav Div nor with any Rhode Island unit. How it came to be listed as 1st AC is unknown. I have previously checked with RI National Guard <u>to see if it had been worn by one of their units.</u> see following edited email between them and myself.

1/15/2001 to RI NG
Dear SFC Loffler
Many many thanks for the specific responses. It settles a minor
controversy. As I believe I mentioned in my letter, There are several
examples where preWWII national guard and reserve units did habitually wear unauthorized crests. They have been documented by photos and direct interviews with actual veterans.

Unfortunately, the pursuit of collecting regimental crests is only slightly younger than the wearing of such insignia. Back in the late 1930s, and particular in the 40s and early 50s, ASMIC and individual collectors could go to the original insignia manufacturers and order either new production runs (from the original authentic dies) of pieces made 15 or 20 years earlier for a unit OR actually have fantasy pieces manufactured from newly created dies. The coat of arms from the unit's colors obtained from the Army Institute of Heraldry were a usual source for the design of such concoctions.

That generation of insignia collectors wanted to represent the existence of all units in whatever Army order of battle they were trying to depict via an assemblage of crests. In other words, focused on genealogy, they had pieces made up to fill the "holes" in their collection for those units that never had an insignia during the period the unit was in that order of battle.

That sort of philosophy lasted into the early 70s but has fortunately died out. However, the hobby, including official ASMIC catalogs, has been irretrievably corrupted by repros and concoctions, some now 60 years old themselves, not to mention counterfeits of rarer real pieces. For instance, the most recent ASMIC catalog for cavalry has this RI piece listed as having
been actually worn by the unit.

For those, such as myself, that seek only historically contemporary pieces, i.e., those actually on someone's uniform at the time, the only way to sort out the real from the fake for 1920s units is to try and find photo evidence of the insignia actually being worn. Seein' is believin'.

So, the 1st Separate Sq, RI Cavalry did exist in the 1920s. Since you have kindly reported that there is an absence of photographic evidence, such as summer camp shots, of its members wearing the piece, I have to conclude it is a concoction, probably dating before 1955 given the high quality of its manufacture.

Thanks again for the response, I hope the researching of it was of some interest to you.


1/13/2001 from RI NG
Answer to question #1
There is NO evidence showing that the insignia (from the ASMIC) catalogue was worn by the 1st Separate Squadron Cavalry, RING. However:
- The insignia shown in the catalogue was UNOFFICIAL and NOT recognized by the Institute of Heraldry (we checked)
- The insignia is a representation of the original Providence Horse Guards (coat buttons and colors)

Answer to question #2
The insignia WAS NOT worn by any other group. The Providence Horse Guards started out as RI Militia and in the early 1900's when the state militia was given the opportunity to be converted to National Guard, the PHG chose to become NG. The PHG WAS NOT a social club.

Answer to question #3
NO photographic evidence available
In addition:
- The PHG was formed in 1842 and was called up for the "Dorr Rebellion" participating in the final battle for the State Arsenal located on Cranston Street. The organizational charter for the unit was not officially recognized until after the rebellion. The PHG was formed in the North Providence/Smithfield Area of the state, but took up residence in a building on the East Side of the city after the rebellion ( somewhat close to the Benefit Street Arsenal in Providence).
- "Mustered in" in 1916 for the Mexican Border
- "Mustered in" in 1917 for WWI
- Redesignated Field Artillery in 1930
SFC Loffler

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dallas</i>
<br />

The only other Regular Army Cavalry Regiment to have a DI was the 27th which was formed in 1943 as part of the 2nd Cavalry Division. This unit had an unapproved DI which was embroidered cloth. Very few of the troops actually had these DIs. I have talked with members of the unit and they had never seen one.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And here it is, courtesy of Dallas.



Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Dallas, how does that DUI work? It was an embroidered patch, so how did it affix to the uniform?

Pat

[dallas Φ]

Pat: I am not sure, having never talked with a unit member who had seen it in use. If it was worn, it would almost have to have been sewn on either the uniform coat or the campaign hat.
Dallas

[stablesgt]

One white officer of this "colored" regt told me his was sewn to the front of his campaign hat in same place a regular DUI would have been worn. Consistent with Dallas' experience, another officer still had one in his possession but, unfortunately, could not recall how/when acquired and did not wear it.

[Pat Holscher]

101st Cav. Regt. This unit was in the New York NG. The DI was approved on 3 January 1928. It is marked "IJWU" which I think stands for International Jewelry Workers Union. It is a P/B.

102nd Cav. Regt. Part of the New Jersey NG. Approved on 16 May 1931. It was made by Meyer and is a S/B.

103rd Cav. Regt. This was one of two cavalry regiments in the Pennsylvania NG. The DI was approved on 14 July 1930. It was made by Robbins Co. of Attleboro, Mass. and is a S/B.

104th Cav. Regt. This was the second PA NG Regt. The DI was approved on 18 February 1924. It is gold plated over sterling and is a P/B.

<b>The 105th Cav. Regt. was in the Wisconsin NG. The distinctive trimming was a 1/4" Dia. twisted scarlet and gold silk cord worn in a single loop around the left sleeve, passing under the shoulder strap of the coat. I have never seen one. If anyone knows of one, please let me know.</b>



106th Cav. Regt. Illinois and Michigan NG. The DI was approved on 21 July 1931. It was made by Robbins and is a S/B.

107th Cav. Regt. This unit was with the Ohio NG. The DI was approved on 19 May 1927. It is not hallmarked and is an open P/B.

108th Cav. Regt. The 108th was divided between the Georgia and Louisiana NG. This DI was approved on 3 July 1934. It was supplied by the National Guard Equipment Co. and is a S/B.

109th Cav. Regt. This regiment was allocated to the States of Alabama, North Carolina and Tennessee. The DI was approved on 31 July 1939. There is no hallmark and it is a S/B

110th Cav. Regt. The 110th was in the Massachusetts NG. The DI was approved on 8 February 1930. It was made by Robbins and is a S/B.

111th Cav. Regt. This unit was in the New Mexico NG. The DI was approved on 12 July 1926. It was supplied by Dondero and is a S/B. In 1940 this unit was redesignated the 207th Coast Artillery (AAA) and was sent to the Philippines where the surviving members were captured by the Japanese.

Bumped up due to the related thread on the 105th Cav.

[Pat Holscher]

Photograph courtesy of Stablesgt, thanks Rich:

[stablesgt]

The above is thought to be the earliest example of a DUI for the 1st Cav Division. This would have been worn by the DIV's 2nd Brigade HQ elements. There is also a similar design version with red head for the 1st Brigade. It is screwback with no hallmark.

[Pat Holscher]

The above is thought to be the earliest example of a DUI for the 1st Cav Division. This would have been worn by the DIV's 2nd Brigade HQ elements. There is also a similar design version with red head for the 1st Brigade. It is screwback with no hallmark.

Interesting to see how they evolved over time.

[Trooper]

This new book may be of interest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Military-Patch-Insi ... dZViewItem