DI Examples

[dallas Φ]

I would like to show some of the machine gun squadrons. This is the 1st MG Sqdn. which was a Regular Army unit. The DI was approved on 4 February 1924. This piece is not hallmarked but is attributed to Amcraft and is a S/B. Most of these units were phased out by the late 1920s and reverted to regular cavalry squadrons. The 1st MG Sqdn. was broken up on 1 February 1928. Troops A, B and C became MG Troops of the 1st, 12th and 5th Cav. Regts respectively. The Sqdn HQ was absorbed into the 5th Cavalry at Fort Clark, TX and the 1st Cav. Brigade at Camp Marfa, TX.

Here is another version of the 1st MG Sqdn. It has brass shading on the ends of the scrolls. This one is not hallmarked but is attributed to Frank Bros. and is a S/B.

Here is the DI for the 2nd MG Sqdn. which was also a Regular Army unit. This DI was approved on 7 August 1923. It is not hallmarked but is attributed to Amcraft and is a S/B. The 2nd was also broken up on 1 February 1928. Troops A and B became MG Troops of the 7th and 8th Cavalry respectively. Troop C was absorbed into both the 7th and 8th Cavalry. Sqdn. HQ was absorbed by the 1st Cav. Div. at Fort Bliss.

The 51st MG Sqdn. was part of the New York NG. The DI was approved on 23 October 1925. This piece was made by Robbins and is a S/B. The 51st was redesignated on 15 February 1928 as the 2nd Sqdn of the 101st Cav. Regt.

This is the DI for the 55th MG Sqdn. which was part of the Alabama NG. The DI was approved on 31 October 1924. It was made by Amcraft and is a P/B. The 55th was consolidated with the 117th Field Artillery on 15 March 1929

The 152nd MG Sqdn. This unit was constituted as part of the 61st Cavalry Division with over 50 percent of the personnel coming from the 51st MG Sqdn. so it probably was in New York but I don't know for sure. The DI was approved on 19 April 1926. This piece was made by Bowman and is a S/B.

This is the DI for the Cavalry School at Fort Riley. The Mounted Service School was established at Riley in 1907 to train both Cavalry and Artillery. In 1919 the schools were separated with only the Cavalry School remaining at Riley. This piece was made by Green in Kansas City and is a S/B.

The Cavalry Replacement Training Center was established at Fort Riley in 1941. This DI was supplied by Dondero and is a P/B.

Here is another CRTC DI in sterling. It is a P/B. This concludes my presentation of horse cavalry DIs. As I mentioned earlier, I still am looking for 3 more to complete this collection. Those are the 27th Cav. Regt., the 105th Cav. Regt. and the 56th MG Sqdn.
Dallas

[Joseph Sullivan]

Dallas:

What is the thinking on cleaning DIs? Should they be left with patina or polished?

Another question -- my CRTC DI looks exactly like your first example. it is marked sterling, but apparently has a gold wash. Is your gold one similar? Would the second example have originally been gold in color, or always silver?

Also, is it true that a complete set of any of these would consist of 2 P/B and 1 S/B?

Joe

[Philip S]

The following link refers to a number of mounted units other than cavalry within the 21st Cavalry Division. Did they also have DI's? I see that you have a picture of the 51st Machine Gun Squadron (NY) DI. Was there a 52nd MG Squad (PA) DI?

http://www.ranger95.com/calvary/History_of_21st_cav.htm

[dallas Φ]

Joe: I would not polish any insignia, or for that matter, any artifact. As far as I am concerned, it lowers the value and detracts from the appearance. That is kind of like refinishing an old firearm.

My gold CRTC DI appears to be gold wash. On the back, some of the gold has worn off and the base metal is silver colored. It is not stamped sterling but only hallmarked with Dondero's mark. The silver colored CRTC DI was originally gold. The back still has considerable gold. That one is stamped sterling, so apparently someone did polish it. Perhaps some old trooper trying to look sharp.
Dallas

[dallas Φ]

Joe: I don't think a set would necessarily consist of 2 P/B and 1 S/B. Possibly for an officer but for an EM, many of them probably had 3 S/B. Even during early WW II, many EM coats and even Ike jackets had the collar brass screwback.
Dallas

[dallas Φ]

Philip: I can't find any record of a 52nd MG Sqdn. DI.

Yes, many of the subordinate units of a Cavalry Division would have had separate DIs. For example, in the 1st Cav. Div., the Signal Troop, Ordnance Troop, Veterinary Troop, Medical Troop, Quartermaster Sqdn. and the Engineer Sqdn. all had separate DIs. In addition, there was also an artillery unit. In other Cav. Divisions, many of the subordinate or attached units would have had their own DIs. Someplace I have a listing of all of the units in the 1st Cav. Division at different times but I can't find it right now.
Dallas
Dallas

[dallas Φ]

I might add that much of the information on the DIs, especially the MG Sqdns, came from The Institute of Heraldry. Stablesgt was kind enough to obtain a lot of this information for me a number of years ago while he was living in Alexandria, VA.
Dallas

[Sam Cox]

a little off topic,how did the Constabulary period DIs differ if at all?
how many of the squadrons had DIs?
Sam

Sam Cox

[dallas Φ]

Sam: Some of the Squadrons wore the same DI as they had during the prewar. For example, the 2nd Regt. DI was worn. I have seen it in Sterling. I have a listing of all of the Constabulary units someplace. I will have to find it. Some of the units had DIs made in Germany and Austria. I have a friend in Lawrence, KS who collects Constabulary uniforms and insignia. I will check with him.
Dallas

[dallas Φ]

Sam: Are you familiar with the following web site?
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/us ... ?docnum=40
Look on Page 54 for a listing of all of the original units incorporated into the Constabulary and what their new designation was. This is probably more informtion than you wanted. I don't know what DIs these units would have worn as Constabulary but probably the original cavalry groups like the 2nd, 6th, 11th, 14th and 15th would continue to wear the DI of their parent cavalry regiments. Don't hold me to this as I am not sure. I do know the 2nd Regt. DI was worn by Constabulary units.
Dallas

[dallas Φ]

That web site address didn't print as I had intended. Start with the http://carlisle-www.army and go from there.
Dallas

[dallas Φ]

That still doesn't print what I wrote. You have to begin with http and add everything after that.

[deddygetty]

Here is another Cavalry DI for you. This is the 99th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mecz), 99th Infantry Division, WW II ETO. Dad also wore the "Build Well" acorn at Ft Riley in 1942.

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />

This is the DI for the 313th Cav. Regt. which was assigned to Kentucky. It was approved on 5 August 1927. This piece was made by Robbins and is a S/B.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This unit was mentioned in a thread below, which is the first time, other than in this thread, it's been mentioned, so I thought I'd note the DI.

Pat

[Trooper George]

Ok, another question or two. First, what does "DI" stand for? (Scuse my iggorinse) Also, I notice this seems to be a post-1900 thing. Would there have been any such thing in the late Civil War/Early Indian Wars period?

Trooper George
4th Cavalry, Company B
5th Texas Volunteers
Old Fort Griffin Memorial Regiment

[Todd]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Trooper George</i>
<br />Ok, another question or two. First, what does "DI" stand for? (Scuse my iggorinse) Also, I notice this seems to be a post-1900 thing. Would there have been any such thing in the late Civil War/Early Indian Wars period?

Trooper George
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
"Distinctive Insignia" - though 'Distinctive Unit Insignia' would be more correct, if somewhat embarrassing.

I believe these came about in the mid- to late-20s, in the current form and usage.

Todd

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Todd</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Trooper George</i>
<br />Ok, another question or two. First, what does "DI" stand for? (Scuse my iggorinse) Also, I notice this seems to be a post-1900 thing. Would there have been any such thing in the late Civil War/Early Indian Wars period?

Trooper George
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
"Distinctive Insignia" - though 'Distinctive Unit Insignia' would be more correct, if somewhat embarrassing.

I believe these came about in the mid- to late-20s, in the current form and usage.

Todd
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Todd's absolutely correct.

On late Civil War or Indian War period, there were some Union units which adopted insignia that appeared on hats, I believe, during the Civil War. I believe these to be unofficial, although I don't really know the details on it. Likely somebody else here does. They aren't really equivalent to DIs, but perhaps anticipate them to a degree.

I'm not aware of any such thing during the Indian Wars. About the closest thing to it would be the use of branch and regiment insignia, eg. crossed sabers with a "2" for 2d Cavalry Regiment, and perhaps a letter for the Troop, used in an unofficial way. For example, you seem some show up on campaign hats in photos, or a unit's officers will have had them embroidered on the collars of shirts.

Pat

[Trooper George]

Thanks for the info. [:D]

[Todd]

I believe Pat's referring to the various Corps insignia's that started up in '63 (was it Hooker who came up with that system?). For some reason, I think Corps badges made a brief appearance again for the Span-Am War.

Division level insignia (shoulder patches) came about during WWI, primarily for Division and Division-level supporting units. From there very beginning of that system, many divisions were trying to recognize smaller unit levels, primarily with different colored variations of the division patch. The 35th Inf. Division had a vast number of color combination patches, as an example. After the war, most units were inactivated. The DI's seem to appear about this time as a way for remaining units hold on to their history - much as today when units are activated/deactivated and swapped around like playing cards.

In speaking of this, I'm referring to US Army insignia. The Marines seems to have gotten into the shoulder patch thing a little bit during WWII, but soon dropped it afterwards (?).

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Todd
I believe Pat's referring to the various Corps insignia's that started up in '63 (was it Hooker who came up with that system?). For some reason, I think Corps badges made a brief appearance again for the Span-Am War.

Division level insignia (shoulder patches) came about during WWI, primarily for Division and Division-level supporting units. From there very beginning of that system, many divisions were trying to recognize smaller unit levels, primarily with different colored variations of the division patch. The 35th Inf. Division had a vast number of color combination patches, as an example. After the war, most units were inactivated. The DI's seem to appear about this time as a way for remaining units hold on to their history - much as today when units are activated/deactivated and swapped around like playing cards.

In speaking of this, I'm referring to US Army insignia. The Marines seems to have gotten into the shoulder patch thing a little bit during WWII, but soon dropped it afterwards (?).

Todd's correct. I was referencing the corp badges. I don't know anything else about them.

I seem to recall that the USMC might have also used the 2d Division patch in WWI, when Marine Corps elements were in the Second Division. Otherwise, their division patches appeared in WWII, and then disappeared thereafter. I've seen subdued versions of USMC division patches being worn by men who'd served with the Marines, and later were in the Army National Guard, or who had been attached to Marine units while in the Army, but I don't know if that's regarded as a valid practice or not.

Pat