The Indian Wars Battles of November

[Pat Holscher]

On the "Today" thread it's notable that there's been several Indian Wars battles noted recently. Adobe Walls in 1864, Washita in 1868, and Dull Knife in 1876 all occured in November. And in a couple of weeks the December battle of the Fetterman Fight will be noted.

Interesting to see how many Indian battles which were noteworthy occured this time of year.

Pat

[Bob Rea]

The other fight of the 1868 winter campaign occurred on Christmas Day '68 at the west end of the Wichita Mts. in sw OK. Known as the Evan's or Soldier Springs fight. Evans and his troopers had traveled down the Canadian River from Fort Bascom, NM and attacked a Comanche village on the N. Fork of the Red River. This drove in to Fort Cobb most of the Comanche & Kiowa. The little mountain howitzers were used in the fight to shell the lodges and drive opponents from the granite rocks of the mountain. Evans' march from NM and back makes Custer's trek to the Washita look like a cake walk.

Bob Rea

[Couvi]

Pat,

nteresting to see how many Indian battles which were noteworthy occurred this time of year.

Some of this was to hit the Indians when their mobility was impaired and they were living on preserved rations. Their logistical train was somewhat short and they were practically impossible to catch when food was easy to obtain.

Couvi

"Cavalier san Cheval"

[Rick Throckmorton]

Bob,
I have spent several days and nights on the sight of Soldier Springs. A very interesting place to see and learn about. It is also the site of a Spanish gold mine. Many artifacts from that mine have been found on the site and during the battle, an ancient Spanish lance was captured from the Comanche. Spanish breastplates and chain mail are also known to have been seen with the Comanche on occasion during the IWP. The site of Soldier Springs itself was a camping place for soldiers on patrol from Forts Sill and Reno in later times. Artifacts from the 1868 fight and the later patrols can be found in the area. These include Spencer cartridge cases, .45 Colt cases, .45 S&W Schofield cases, .45-70 cases, and smashed lead bullets fired into the boulders of the outer canyon wall. I knew a gentleman who had a piece of one of the 12 lbr. shells that was fired into the village. If I recall correctly, the first failed to burst and the second exploded properly, and these were the only rounds fired by the mountain howitzers. The land owner of the village site is allegedly known to have recovered the unexploded round. He is quite the unfriendly fellow and will not allow access to the village site or even discuss anything about the site. The neighbors are much more friendly.
I, too, have marveled about the 3rd Cavalry's treck from Ft. Bascom to Soldier Springs, OK, and back during a horrible winter storm period. The suffering had to have been tremendous. The regimental surgeon's records of that campaign would be interesting.
Rick

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Rick Throckmorton
Bob,
I have spent several days and nights on the sight of Soldier Springs. A very interesting place to see and learn about. It is also the site of a Spanish gold mine. Many artifacts from that mine have been found on the site and during the battle, an ancient Spanish lance was captured from the Comanche. Spanish breastplates and chain mail are also known to have been seen with the Comanche on occasion during the IWP. The site of Soldier Springs itself was a camping place for soldiers on patrol from Forts Sill and Reno in later times. Artifacts from the 1868 fight and the later patrols can be found in the area. These include Spencer cartridge cases, .45 Colt cases, .45 S&W Schofield cases, .45-70 cases, and smashed lead bullets fired into the boulders of the outer canyon wall. I knew a gentleman who had a piece of one of the 12 lbr. shells that was fired into the village. If I recall correctly, the first failed to burst and the second exploded properly, and these were the only rounds fired by the mountain howitzers. The land owner of the village site is allegedly known to have recovered the unexploded round. He is quite the unfriendly fellow and will not allow access to the village site or even discuss anything about the site. The neighbors are much more friendly.
I, too, have marveled about the 3rd Cavalry's treck from Ft. Bascom to Soldier Springs, OK, and back during a horrible winter storm period. The suffering had to have been tremendous. The regimental surgeon's records of that campaign would be interesting.
Rick

I spent most of the day up in the hills today, with the temperature never climbing above 17F, and on foot. Today, as noted in the anniversary of Dull Knife, which I recalled climbing up and down the hills in the mountains, and going through the snow we had this past week.

What an ordeal these must have been for both sides. In the automobile age we can hardly imagine it.

Pat

[Bob Rea]

Yes, I have heard that one of the land owners was quite hostile. I heard he thinks the government wants his place. He flatters himself.
The chances of the government condemning his property for a battle field such as this are slim and none. Not much interest and less money.

Unless he has found that Spanish gold...or you really like large rocks...

It really irks me that all those succeeding generations of soldiers were allowed to "muddy" up the site with their ordnance.

I have heard that Evans' supply depot has been located on the Canadian in the Texas Panhandle. No confirmation on that tho.

Bob Rea

[Pat Holscher]

Of potential interest here, 7th Cavalry horses were found by the Army amongst the stuff attributable to Little Big Horn in Dull Knife's camp. I mention this due to the common conception that Comanche was the only Army horse to survive the battle. As with the Sioux who went into Canada, the Cheyenne veterans of Little Big Horn at Dull Knife's camp (which did not include Dull Knife, he wasn't there) had taken horses from there.

Pat

[Couvi]

Bob,

Originally posted by Bob Rea
Yes, I have heard that one of the land owners was quite hostile. I heard he thinks the government wants his place. He flatters himself.
The chances of the government condemning his property for a battle field such as this are slim and none. Not much interest and less money.

Unless he has found that Spanish gold...or you really like large rocks...

It really irks me that all those succeeding generations of soldiers were allowed to "muddy" up the site with their ordnance.

I have heard that Evans' supply depot has been located on the Canadian in the Texas Panhandle. No confirmation on that tho.

Bob Rea

Is there anything left at Camp Augur and Camp Radziminski (spelling)?

Couvi

"Cavalier san Cheval"

[Bob Rea]

Couvi,
There is an OHS historical marker on the highway near Radziminski but I have not been to the site. I understand that nothing is left.


Bob Rea

[Couvi]

Bob,

Originally posted by Bob Rea
Couvi,
There is an OHS historical marker on the highway near Radziminski but I have not been to the site. I understand that nothing is left.


Bob Rea

There were several Radziminski's. I have only been to one of them and there was little there to show its existence.

During the 1870's, Camp Augur was south of Fort Sill near the Red River. At one time there was a corral there. Radziminski was just about due west of Fort Sill. There was another one between Fort Sill and Fort Supply, but the name escapes me, but that may have been Fort Cobb. Camp Elliot was at Old Mobeetie, TX.

Couvi

"Cavalier san Cheval"

[Bob Rea]

The last Radziminski is a couple of miles north of Mt. Park, Ok. and back west. It is just over the mountain from my maternal grandparents farm. I think there were 3 named so as they worked there way up Otter Crk from the Red River. No permanent buildings built. There was a Camp Beach or Fort Otter on Otter Crk to the south used as a supply depot for troops in the field. Fort Cobb is between Sill and Reno nearer to Anadarko (Wichita Agency). Fort Elliott was est. in '75 as a result of Red River War.

Bob Rea

[Couvi]

Originally posted by Bob Rea
The last Radziminski is a couple of miles north of Mt. Park, Ok. and back west. It is just over the mountain from my maternal grandparents farm. I think there were 3 named so as they worked there way up Otter Crk from the Red River. No permanent buildings built. There was a Camp Beach or Fort Otter on Otter Crk to the south used as a supply depot for troops in the field. Fort Cobb is between Sill and Reno nearer to Anadarko (Wichita Agency). Fort Elliott was est. in '75 as a result of Red River War.

Bob Rea

Camp Beach was the one I was thinking of! Was there not a site on Blue Beaver or some similar named creek? Or, am I thinking of Otter Creek?

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>

[Rick Throckmorton]

Couvi the psot between Sill and Supply was probably "Cantonment on the North Fork of the Canadian River." This post was placed in the middle of the Cheyenne-Arapaho reservation after the Dull Knife breakout. Originally designed as a six company post, full funding was never allocated for it, so it never became a permanant post, and lasted for only three years, 1879-81. It was used as a temporary post as necessary after that.
Rick

[Bob Rea]

Have not heard of a Blue Beaver. Maybe that is what an otter looks like when he gets really cold.
Of course, people have a habit of calling a stream one thing and then somebody else changes it. Hard Pull creek just west of this post is now called Sand Creek. The term Sand Creek might be the most common name for a western tributary. There are 3 within 20 miles of here.
Some years ago there were some people who did not have enough to do.
They suggested some name changes for creeks in Oklahoma to be more politically correct. One was south of here known as Dead Indian Creek. They thought the local Cheyenne would approve. Cheyenne told them to mind their own business.
Speaking of Cantonment...there is a rumor that the C & A want to build a casino on or near the old post grounds. Indian casinos are sure proliferating in these parts.

Bob Rea

[Couvi]

Rick,

Originally posted by Rick Throckmorton
Couvi the post between Sill and Supply was probably "Cantonment on the North Fork of the Canadian River." This post was placed in the middle of the Cheyenne-Arapaho reservation after the Dull Knife breakout. Originally designed as a six company post, full funding was never allocated for it, so it never became a permanant post, and lasted for only three years, 1879-81. It was used as a temporary post as necessary after that.
Rick

I had completely forgotten about that one. I have been gone from there too long.

Originally posted by Bob Rea
Have not heard of a Blue Beaver. Maybe that is what an otter looks like when he gets really cold. Smart Ass!
Of course, people have a habit of calling a stream one thing and then somebody else changes it. Hard Pull creek just west of this post is now called Sand Creek. The term Sand Creek might be the most common name for a western tributary. There are 3 within 20 miles of here.

Coming from Louisiana, the Oklahoma creek name business was a real puzzle to me. By my figures one third of the creeks in Oklahoma are named Sand Creek. One third are named Elm, pronounced <b><font size="3">El-</font id="size3"><i>lum</i></b> Creek. And the rest have at least three different names. So, if someone tells you he lives on Sand Creek, you still don't know where he lives! I looked for Mule Creek between Fort Sill and the Red River for years and came to the conclusion that it just didn’t exist.

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>

[Bob Rea]

I didn't know there were any creeks in Looeasyana. Thought they was all byooze (hope I spelt that right).

For some years, I have been looking for the last Indian/Army fight in OK up west of Alva. It was noted by the Army that it was fought on Turkey Crk. No current resident knows it by that name. It has been called Anderson Crk for as far back as they remember. It is listed on the 1876 map of the area as Turkey. The sketch map for the Army's court martial proceedings (long story) shows the creek named as both Turkey or Indian Creek.

Speaking of mules...a Cheyenne told me the other day that the Kiowa war pony was ...the mule.

Bob Rea

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Bob Rea
I didn't know there were any creeks in Looeasyana. Thought they was all byooze (hope I spelt that right).

For some years, I have been looking for the last Indian/Army fight in OK up west of Alva. It was noted by the Army that it was fought on Turkey Crk. No current resident knows it by that name. It has been called Anderson Crk for as far back as they remember. It is listed on the 1876 map of the area as Turkey. The sketch map for the Army's court martial proceedings (long story) shows the creek named as both Turkey or Indian Creek.

Speaking of mules...a Cheyenne told me the other day that the Kiowa war pony was ...the mule.

Bob Rea

I once looked at a copy of a map made by John C. Fremont as he came through this country. To my enormous surprise, several of the creek names were the same as they are now, even though that was very early and before there were very many non Indian residents. The names were fairly generic, "Deer Creek", etc., but they were recognizable.

This isn't to say they all stayed the same. We have our share of generic names. Cow Creek, etc.

Pat

[Couvi]

Bob,

Originally posted by Bob Rea
I didn't know there were any creeks in Looeasyana. Thought they was all byooze (hope I spelt that right).

For some years, I have been looking for the last Indian/Army fight in OK up west of Alva. It was noted by the Army that it was fought on Turkey Crk. No current resident knows it by that name. It has been called Anderson Crk for as far back as they remember. It is listed on the 1876 map of the area as Turkey. The sketch map for the Army's court martial proceedings (long story) shows the creek named as both Turkey or Indian Creek.

Speaking of mules...a Cheyenne told me the other day that the Kiowa war pony was ...the mule.

Bob Rea

Louisiana may have creeks, but “Bayous” are far more common in my part of that Great State. Bayou, incidentally, is a Choctaw, not Creole, word that was adopted. There are bayous from Alabama up to Southeastern Oklahoma and to the best of my knowledge that all have alligators in them. Fortunately, they taste like chicken and can be made into a fair to middlin’ gumbo.


I have also heard that mule comment about Kiowas from Comanches. The Comanche word for Kiowa is the same the word for mouse. In spite of the fact that the Kiowa were much more sophisticated that the Comanche, the Comanche had very little respect for them. Mules were supposed to be better to eat than horses, too, but I don’t know what kind of gumbo they would make!

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>

[Pat Holscher]

My son, who is a Cub Scout, went to the National Historic Trails Center here in town today and brought back an map of trails going through this state. To my surprise, I see where there was a "Ft. Supply" Wyoming. I had no idea. I wonder how many forts had that name?

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Seasonal bump up.

By the way, anyone hear from Bob recently?