Khaki Breeches

[stablesgt]

Paul
I spent 15 mins on a response to your kind reply but it has apparently gone off into the ether. Will attempt to replicate tomorrow.

[Ron Smith]

You will read my coming comment and think I have lost it, but here it is. It is possible that you have breeches, not riding breeches. There is a difference. There were breech patterns for officers that explicitly state they are not for riding.

The stride is cut differently as is the leg-knee seam. There were 6 basic patterns in the 1930's-40's, and a number of variations based off of those 6.

Riding breeches have to be loose in the seat with a deep-long stride as oppoesed to a trouser cut stride, especially if using non elasticised material. The length of the leg segment below the knee,should go above the ankle from 1 - 1 1/2 inches and be slightly loose in the knee. Different fabrics will react in different ways. If using cotton it should be 8 - 10 ounce weight, if it is wool it should be 10 -12 ounce weight. Also when fastening the breech it should be snug and allow freedom of movement on the calf. The waist band should be rather high in the natural waist area, not a modern cut waist.

A good example of "walking breeches" is the type used by Texas A&M Cadets, they look like pinks but are actually a modern fabric breech pattern made to walk in and not ride in. I can put a pair on and look perfect until I try to mount, then it is all over, but the laughing.

Keep in mind as I have stated many times, if doing a 30's - 40's mounted impression, there is no set color or pattern. What a troop/Officer wore in the 11th Cav in California in 1938, may look like what a troop in Georgia or New York was wearing, but in actuallity color shade and material were different.

Sarge's Surplus in College Station has all the Dark OD elastique coats you want for the 30-4o's period, if you are size 40 or smaller.

Regards,
Ron Smith

[Paul Scholtz]

Ron,

I knew you would come through. WALKING breeches? They were really called that? Perhaps they were after the authoritative look and mistique a mounted officer has, I bekieve that is why so many WW II German officers who never got near a horse wore them. Is this walking breeches a trade name or term? If that is the case, there may be no way to make sarges garment suitable for sitting in a saddle OR a chair.

And Sarge, I await your etherized reply anxiously. This blasted machine eats over half of what I hammer out on it. Give me a broncy horse or ill-fitting breeches any day over a confuser. At least it makes the SMH Forum possible!

At your(mounted)service,

Paul Scholtz

[Ron Smith]

Paul,
The term "walking breches" is a slang term derived from the use of the breeches. The proper pattern name is Army Officer Breeches, a similar non riding pattern is Chauffer's Breeches. Neither pair is acceptable for riding anything.

Regal Patterns Diagram # 70 even describes them in such manner as for walking, and not riding. Remember not all officers rode by 1938 but the uniform with breeches was very popular long after the horse was gone from the TOE of certain divisions/branches. Cavalry did not have the exclusivety of having a mounted tradition.

Personally I would think the Aggie cadet breeches would be waste of time, toomany minor discrepancies to overcome and they would be uncomfortable on horseback. i spoke to the company that makes them thosi morning, and the rep even advised they were not made for riding.

Taupe material can be had rather easily and the Buckskin for the knee patches can be bought at most Tandy type leather outlets. I can suply pattern diagrams for those who need them. Contact me directly and I will give you options and pattern fees.

Regards,
Ron Smith

[Paul Scholtz]

Ron,

That further explains the whole "walking breeches" phenomenon, a real enigma to me! If the factory rep said you can't ride ANYTHING in them, it must be an accurate report! I understand the "chauffers Breeches" explanation, a tradtional way of dressing, and Military Horseman should understand tradition if anyone can.

Also glad for the warning about Aggie breeches, I had toyed with the idea of tying to get some so as to have a set of "Pink and Greens" to be propper at Official events. You might let the A&M boys know somthing about the rakish creases in their campaign hats as viewed at Ft. Sill last Spring.....

At your(mounted)service,

Paul Scholtz

[Pat Holscher]

This reminds a person that breeches were also a common issue item for many militaries for non mounted personnel for many reasons. It was still common amongst many armies in WWII. For example, in WWI the US still issued breeches to all troops, with a difference existing between the mounted and dismounted patterns. For many years the standard military pants of a lot of armies included breeches and puttees, whether or not the soldiers were mounted. I've seen Swiss examples that were made well after WWII, for example. Reproduction breeches of the dismounted pattern are sold by at least one vendor for WWI at the present time, so it'd be easy to hope to get one thing, and then get another.

On German officers of WWII, Paul is correct in noting that breeches, often of the true riding variety, were popular. I think this has more to do with the officers mostly being drawn form the Prussian nobility up until the Nazis took over in 32. After that, the Nazis co-opted much of the appearance of the Prussian influenced Imperial Army (and Prussian officer corps of the Reichswehr) as an attempt at proving legitimacy. You can find many examples of Nazi party functionaries, for example, dressed in this manner well prior to WWII, even though they had no need of uniforms at all in their beurocratic positions of institutionalized evil. A similiar example would be given by the preservation of the Prussian look, including breeches, in the Army of the DDR after WWII, well after any East German officer would need to know how to ride. Indeed, the Army of the DDR preserved the look of the Prussian officer right down in to the enlisted ranks. Anyhow, it is traceable, no doubt, to a fashion adopted when German officer really did need to know how to ride, which did not pre-date WWII by all that many years, and was probably kept on by those attempting to show that they should be accorded the same respect previously paid to junkers.

Pat

[stablesgt]

I hope someone is still watching this chain. My initial comment had to do with Army QM issue khaki britches. The ones causing the knee discomfort are what I presume to be EM, repeat EM issue, not purhced from a current replicator. They have small tags sewn on the back side of one the front pockets. With ink stampings from the Philadelphia QM depot. Some also have the early 1930s NRA logo. Am I wrong that Phil. QM depot tags define EM intended britches?

Would I be wrong in guessing that there was no such thing as a walking version of britches for EM? If not, I'm back to my original mystey of why EM britches meant for the saddle that fit me wonderfuly in all other regards are such a pain in the knee (if you believe I am not deformed with elephantine kneecaps- which I'm not).

Paul's earlier suggestion of buying bigger and cutting down was thought of BUT I have observed that the QM seemed to have followed some sort of proportional scheme. Not a large range of waist sizes within a given inseam. To get a pair of britches with a more roomy kne, I'd have to find a very rare britches waist size, say 40" or 42" but if the QM pattern holds true, it would have an inseam intended for Abe Lincoln.

This of course applies to original britches made from that wonderful Cramerton khaki. I've tried WWII Impressions and their sizing was way off the deep end in relation to the waist size.

The topic of walking britches was new to me. But also mystifying. If you can sit in a chair at a desk (much sharper angle at the knee) in one of them, why wouldn't they be comfortable in a saddle?

[Joseph Sullivan]

UNless you sit differently than most, you do not straddle your desk chair.

Joe

[Rob Thomas]

Ron
Is it possible to get a copy of pattern #70?

[Ron Smith]

Rob,
Contact me privately for that information.

Regards,
Ron Smith

[Grant]

Re "Stablesgt"'s knee problem. Traditionally tailored English riding breeches had the side seam carried over the knee & down inside. The knee when bent has the knee cap floating free & increasing the girth of the joint. So breeches made by joining two pieces of material, front & back , without this seam, tend unless made of stretch materials today, not to yield & give knee ease. There are "walking" & "riding" as well as "working" breeches made for farmers In England or were. A check with a traditional tailor or book on the subject might help. Sincerely, Grant.

John L. Matthew

[stablesgt]

So, given the side seam construction, it would seem that the Quartermaster supplied mounted EM of the US Army suffered from cramped knees and eventually popped seams from at least WWI until 1944. I have a pair that predate WWI and will have to dig them out of a storage box to check whether the seam is on the side or over the knee.

Just to add a new side alley akin to the "walking britches", I have a pair of what could be called walking spurs. They are silver plated rounded hammerhead style with a shorter shank and can be found in military haberdasher's catalogs of the period. I use them only once a year for full dress parade, otherwise known as "opening day" at the hunt I belong to. Even afte only three uses and prompt wiping off that evenin, the horsesweat salts are showing on the inner sides.

[Kelton Oliver]

There actually were spurs made just for "walking out" including some which did not even have straps and were never intended for riding. They were more like a badge of status or an item of jewelry.

[stablesgt]

Kelton
by any chance are your refering to box spurs?

[Kelton Oliver]

I believe that's what I was thinking of. There may have been others as well. I once read a description in a British officer's memoirs of the attire he wore to a dance. He described dainty silver spurs which apparently gripped the boot by spring tension.

[stablesgt]

If you have deep pockets and the time, you can fly over to London and go to Germyn St in the vicinity of Saville Row. You will find the military outfitters who can fix you up with Wellington boots to go under your long Guards or Hussar dress parade trousers. The back of the heels have a little metal inset sprin loaded socket into which you stick the particular style spur appropriate for your regt. Saville Row can still fix you up with a bespoke officer's short melton wool overcoat if you wish. No, I didn't get any of that. I spent a half day going from shop to shop trying to find who had the monopoly on furnishing Guards officers with the old fashioned russet riding gloves that have the three seams on the back of the hand. Murphy's Law, that shop was closed, however, I learned where to totally outfit myself for the Household Cavalry when I get an appointment. By the way, you have to go over to Knobb's at St. James to get your chain spurs and high boots.

[Pat Holscher]

Given the popularity of the breeches threads, I thought I'd bump this up.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

As viewed from the front:


Courtesy of the Wyoming Militia Historical Society</font id=size1>

Really big photo (Explorer users see less than half of it), bumped up by request.

[Pat Holscher]

Another try.

[Pat Holscher]

As viewed from the front:


Courtesy of the Wyoming Militia Historical Society</font id=size1>

Really big photo (Explorer users see less than half of it), bumped up by request.

Bump.