Red Army cavalry

[Pat Holscher]

Interesting - no 1938-type M-N carbines.

Do we err in making the assumption that all carbines were primarily horse-oriented weapons? Seems that the trend to the shorter rifles ( M1903, Garand, Mauser 98, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) suited mounted troops very well, and the "second generation" of short weapons was primarily required for vehicles with their cramped/awkward interiors.

Interesting point.

There is almost sort of a generational shift in some instances. The short rifles wiped out the carbine in most, but not all armies. Some armies that retained carbines made pretty wide use of them, or non cavalry use. The late war Soviet carbines weren't really mounted arms, and the VZ33, when adopted by the Germans, wasn't adopted for mounted use. Of course the M1 Carbine in no way contemplated mounted use.

I suppose the M1 might have arguably ushered in the modern era, for good or ill, in regards to carbines. Darned near all the most recent assault rifles are really carbines.

[Pat Holscher]

Interesting - no 1938-type M-N carbines.

Do we err in making the assumption that all carbines were primarily horse-oriented weapons? Seems that the trend to the shorter rifles ( M1903, Garand, Mauser 98, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) suited mounted troops very well, and the "second generation" of short weapons was primarily required for vehicles with their cramped/awkward interiors.

The M-N 1938 was designed as a cavalry long arm, however carbines were issue to artillery and engineers as well as cavalry, the main different in most armies was cavalry had the sabre was their close in fighting weapon and there for didn't have a bayonet and the other did. The short rifles exspecially the Lee Enfield was designed from the lesson of the Boer war, infantry rifles were too long to be handled from horseback and cavalry carbines lacked range. The American followed the British example and designed one rifle as a unverisal sysyem instead of a rifle and carbine systems.

I'd dispute this slightly, in that short rifles had made an appearance before the Boer War. Mauser was already producing them by the mid 1890s, and they made their appearance in the Boer War in Boer hands, although the Boers were principally armed with "long" rifles. Anyhow, I'd argue that the short rifle made its first significant, and perhaps first actual, appearance as a Mauser option. Mauser, depending to a large degree on export sales, also offered carbines and long rifles, so they certainly didn't take over at that point, and the short rifle didn't come to completely dominate rifle production until after World War One.

The Short Magazine Lee Enfield was, of course, designed with the lessons of the Boer War in mind, but much of its redesign simply incorporated Mauser features. The length of the rifle followed the Mauser short rifle example, and the rifle was also altered to allow for the use of stripper clips. The M1903 followed Mauser's lead even more closely, and was an Americanized variant of the pre 98 rifle. I don't think, however, the US followed the British example. Springfield Armory was really pretty closely reengineering the existing Mauser 95 design, but retaining some Krag features. In both the British and American examples it was the Mauser 95 that provided the example. The American reaction, caused by the Spanish American War, was greater than the British one, but then the Krag had proved more lacking than the Lee. The British, however, continued to follow up and would have adopted a Mauser variant by 1920, but for the intervention of World War One.

[Kentucky Horseman]

Pat, you are right about the design of the Springfield 1903. I meant the USA followed the practice of arming all arms of the army with the same design of rifle, instead of one design for the Cavalry, infantry and one for artillery and engineers, which I believe the British were the first to do that. Of course poorer nations like those in Latin American and other places might have done it earlier was a cost saving measure, I don't know.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat, you are right about the design of the Springfield 1903. I meant the USA followed the practice of arming all arms of the army with the same design of rifle, instead of one design for the Cavalry, infantry and one for artillery and engineers, which I believe the British were the first to do that. Of course poorer nations like those in Latin American and other places might have done it earlier was a cost saving measure, I don't know.

I think the US and the UK arrived at that decision simultaneously. The SMLE was technically adopted in December 1902, but it didn't really enter production until the following year. The M1903 was adopted in 1903, but it was redesigned in 1905. Both nations were arming with "short rifles" at the same time.

As for dispensing with carbines, most, maybe all, major armies had carbines prior to that, and I don't really know of any that had no carbines, although they may exist. Arguably the Boer states were the very first to pretty much dispense with carbines entirely, as they were armed with rifles or short rifles. Boers were required to buy a rifle to the military pattern, and they pretty much all went with rifles or short rifles, which they also used for hunting. The British, of course, went to using Long Lees for mounted troops during the Boer War as the carbine proved to be inadequate. Interestingly, Canada, which shared the British Boer War experience, retained the use of long rifles after the war, adopting a long rifle variant of the Ross for all troops, starting in 1903. That would mean that starting in 1903 The US, UK and Canada were all reequipping with a single long arm for all troops.

That takes us back to the point that Todd made earlier in the thread. Starting with the Boer War, we see a lot of soldiers using regular rifles while mounted, irrespective of that same army having a carbine in their inventory. Interesting observation.

[jan]

"I'll confess that I know so little about Soviet forces, I actually don't know what some of these terms mean. What's a gymnastiorka? Their tunic?"

Yes Pat, this is the name of this pullover tunic, based on a older traditional Russian design

Jan.

[Richard Hulan]

[quote="Pat Holscher"][quote="jan"]

That mounted machine gun is called a Tachanka, and I posted a couple of links about it on the "Machine Gun Cart" thread, a few days ago -- notably, a subtitled animation of the rousing Red Army propaganda song, "Tachanka." However, the very photo posted here is seen (about 1:50 into the slide show) in the following, musically inferior version of the same song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfYE4Uft4UY

I've been lurking here because my family made harness, not because I know anything about the Soviet cavalry. I do happen to know that song, though.

[hbtoday98]

As for dispensing with carbines, most, maybe all, major armies had carbines prior to that, and I don't really know of any that had no carbines, although they may exist. Arguably the Boer states were the very first to pretty much dispense with carbines entirely, as they were armed with rifles or short rifles. Boers were required to buy a rifle to the military pattern, and they pretty much all went with rifles or short rifles, which they also used for hunting. The British, of course, went to using Long Lees for mounted troops during the Boer War as the carbine proved to be inadequate. Interestingly, Canada, which shared the British Boer War experience, retained the use of long rifles after the war, adopting a long rifle variant of the Ross for all troops, starting in 1903. That would mean that starting in 1903 The US, UK and Canada were all reequipping with a single long arm for all troops.

NEW ZEALANDERS WENT INTO THE BOER WAR USING ARTILARY CARBINES MARTINI ENFEILDS 303 MK1 1897CONVERTED FROM 577/450 MARTINI HENRY MKIII MADE IN 1882. THEN LEE METFORDS MK2 1893 THEN LEE ENFEILD MKI 1893 MKI*1895 THE BLACK POWDER WAS AN ISSUE UNTILL THEY WENT TO CORDITE ,THE CARBINES HAD A NASTY KICK IT WAS NOT THAT IT PROVED INADEQUATE.I THINK THE BRITISH WERE NOT READY FOR THE SCALE OF RE-ARMORMENT RIFLE OR HORSE AND ARTILARY.
WE GOT 5000 LEE ENFEILDS FROM CANADA ALL THESE WERE REISSUED IN WW1 AND USED IN WW2 FOR TRAINING AND HOME GUARD UNITS.
SO THREE WARS CARBINES WERE USED AS THE JUNGLE CARBINES ENFIELD OF WW2 KICKED THE SAME AS THE ARTILARY CARBINE OF THE BOER.
THE BOER WAR BECAUSE OF THE DISTANCES A MARCHING(FOOT)ARMY WAS FORCED THE MOVE TO MOUNTED RIFLES UNIT
I HOPE THIS HELPS
CHEERS MAL

[Todd]

Oww, my ears....

[Couvi]

Oww, my ears....

Yes! Thank you!

[Pat Holscher]

http://denverpost.slideshowpro.com/albu ... 1300241687

[Pat Holscher]

In Leningrad:

http://www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/ ... 16b1/183/0

[Alex]

Hi guys,

want to show you a few pictures of Red Army cavalrymen. Hope it will be interesting to you.



Soviet first lieutenant. Circa 1935-1943. Exact date and attributes are unknown (haven't seen one to be frank). The uniform fits in this period. Note the sabre and a compass on the left wrist. The privates in the background very likely armed with M1938 carbine.

Alex.

P.S. Pat, it will be probably for the best if you merge threads similar to this topic in one. If they remained of course. I haven't find one. Thanks!

[Pat Holscher]

P.S. Pat, it will be probably for the best if you merge threads similar to this topic in one. If they remained of course. I haven't find one. Thanks!

Good Ideal, I'll hunt them up and combine them.

Great topic by the way, and excellent photograph.

[Pat Holscher]

That saber is the type I'd identify with Cossacks. Is this a Cossack formation?

[Alex]

That saber is the type I'd identify with Cossacks. Is this a Cossack formation?

Pat,

this is Cossack saber - szaszka. It was adopted in Russian Imperial Army in 1881 and changed little in the next fifty years. What you see is the 1927 pattern saber. As I mentioned in one of the previous topics USSR organized Cossacks into five divisions before the World War 2. When the war began and there was need in men more Cossack divisions were formed where it was convenient (Cossacks doesn't lived everywhere).
In picture we see a regular cavalrymen, not a Cossack. The latter usually had their own distinctive uniform with busby hats.

Alex.

[Alex]

Gentlemen,

Here's another nice piece depicts cavalry training in 1943. We've seen many of such pictures with US or British cavalry and now Soviet. Laying a horse was a common practice which horsemen learned to perform because it was extremely helpful in reconnaissance. I haven't seen using of horse as cover by Red cavalry before so this photo provides us with valuable information regarding of what Soviet cavalry was trained to do.
Please note that a cavalryman in the background armed with sub-machine gun. Also we can see some saddle tack. As you can see cincha is different from McClellan's. Two leather straps and what is called the connecting strap.


Photo by Boris Ignatovich.

Alex.

[Alex]

I've seen this picture attributed as trooper in cavalry school, circa 1930. It could be an officer judging by his uniform and lapel's insignia, saddle and pistol with a lanyard. But it's hard to tell for sure.



Alex.

[Alex]

Important note:

I do not own pictures which I post. It's because part of them may be in public domain and part of them comes from an archives (with attributes lost in transit to my regret).
I'm always try to locate an author, his name or current right holder for any material but sometimes it is not possible due to million of causes.
In addition there is not so many pictures of Soviet cavalry at all, much more gone during turmoil of 1990s and in many cases not so good work of governmental archives (with little money and enthusiasm to sustain it), some family archives either lost or people does not like to share its heritage. Last but not least - Soviet people loved to photograph but first there was not so much cameras around when cavalry was active (starting from 1920 and up to 1955) and second there wasn't much interest to make such special photos with horsemen or with airplanes. People liked to see other people most of the time.

So, please, take it as it is. I will try to do my best to provide as much information as I can for every picture.

Alex.

[Alex]

And there's another example of using horse as cover. Cavalryman shooting from lying position.
On manoeuvres of Turkestan military command. Picture was taken by Maxime Penson, Russian-Jewish photographer, native of Uzbekistan.

Note the snaffle bridle and cincha leather straps. There's also sabre and it appears that he uses M1891\30 rifle.


Photography: Max Penson (accordingly to requirements of http://www.maxpenson.com website rights of use)

Alex.

[Pat Holscher]

Great photos!