Muli vor! GebirgsjÃ¤ger Pack Mules

Pat Holscher · Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:53 pm

Do any of the Scandinavian countries have units like this?

Pat

Pat Holscher · Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:37 pm

I'd be really curious as to the influences and age of the packsaddles we see in use here. Interesting looking tack.

I've really enjoyed these photos. Most intersting.

Somewhat related, there's an old thread up here somewhere talking about the reformation of the US 10th Mountain Division back in the 80s (at least I think it was the 80s). Some thought was given to making the unit a true mountain division at that time, and equipping it with some mules. In the end the Army did not do this, and I don't know if the Mountain tab is honorific, or indicates some mountain training. The 10th has served in Afghanistan in recent years, so it's seen some mountain use. Thinking of it being equipped with mules sounded odd before Afghanistan, but with these examples, and the Afghani service, you have to wonder.

Pat

Heeresbergfuhrer · Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:49 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pat Holscher
 And what is that odd tracked vehicle? It almost looks like a Bren gun carrier, which it obviously is not. I'd hate to get caught in a modern battle in that armoed vehicle. I think I'd rather take my chances on the halfinger. Note also the cart. It looks a lot like the carts in use in WWII. Pat<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Servus Bergkameraden,

The little tracked vehicle is the Waffenträger WIESEL. It comes in serval variants with the 20mm Cannon, TOW missiles, etc. and is air transportable. This vehicle isn't heavily armored, but is small, fast, easy to hide, and can pack a punch!

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/wiesel1.htm

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in ... l_mk20.htm

Wiesel und Muli vor!

Heeresbergführer Kiser

Heeresbergfuhrer · Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:35 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pat Holscher
 I'd be really curious as to the influences and age of the packsaddles we see in use here. Interesting looking tack.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Servus Mulischoffeures,

The current issue Bundeswehr packsaddle is basically the same as the World War II Wehrmacht packsaddle. The BW has added some extra tie-down loops and has some additional equipment racks to carry current weapon systems. The tack has remained the same as the Wehrmacht type also.

Here are some 1950-60's BW Gebirgsjägers with Muli, packsaddle, and wicker panniers (the saddle and panniers look to be WWII issue):

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser

Pat Holscher · Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:09 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pat Holscher
 I'd be really curious as to the influences and age of the packsaddles we see in use here. Interesting looking tack.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Servus Mulischoffeures,

The current issue Bundeswehr packsaddle is basically the same as the World War II Wehrmacht packsaddle. The BW has added some extra tie-down loops and has some additional equipment racks to carry current weapon systems. The tack has remained the same as the Wehrmacht type also.

Here are some 1950-60's BW Gebirgsjägers with Muli, packsaddle, and wicker panniers (the saddle and panniers look to be WWII issue):

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Neat photos, thanks.

Pat

Joseph Sullivan · Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:18 pm

You could see the mule's irritation mounting until he finally fired both barrels.

Joe

Heeresbergfuhrer · Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:22 pm

Servus alte Mulis,

Yeah...with those ears pointing back and the tail swishing...not a good sign. I have read that during World War II the Gebirgsjäger marked the Muli that had a tendency to kick with a red ribbon tied to the mule's tail.

Muli vor!

Heeresbergführer Kiser

Philip S · Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:18 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 Servus alte Mulis,

Yeah...with those ears pointing back and the tail swishing...not a good sign. I have read that during World War II the Gebirgsjäger marked the Muli that had a tendency to kick with a red ribbon tied to the mule's tail.

Muli vor!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tying a red ribbon on a horse's tail as a warning is still standard practice in horse shows.[}:)]

Pat Holscher · Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:52 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pat Holscher
 And what is that odd tracked vehicle? It almost looks like a Bren gun carrier, which it obviously is not. I'd hate to get caught in a modern battle in that armoed vehicle. I think I'd rather take my chances on the halfinger. Note also the cart. It looks a lot like the carts in use in WWII. Pat<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Servus Bergkameraden,

The little tracked vehicle is the Waffenträger WIESEL. It comes in serval variants with the 20mm Cannon, TOW missiles, etc. and is air transportable. This vehicle isn't heavily armored, but is small, fast, easy to hide, and can pack a punch!

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/wiesel1.htm

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in ... l_mk20.htm

Wiesel und Muli vor!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This vehicle reminds me of a little tracked vehicle the US had which mounted six recoiless rifles. I can't recall what it was called.

I'd hate to be assigned to a thing like this. It looks like it'd attract attention. I think I'd take my chances with the horse.

Pat

Todd · Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:33 pm

ONTOS?

Pat Holscher · Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:06 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Todd
 ONTOS?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontos

Pat

dimarcol · Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:27 pm

I tested weasels at Fort Knox many years ago... actually a pretty cool little vehicle within its very obvious limits. The Germans only use the vehicle with the reconnaissance and weapons elements of their airmobile and mountain troops. It can mount anything from a 20mm cannon to a 120mm mortar. It's very fast...probably a road speed of 45mph or better. Its armor can stop a .50 cal round to the turret. The best feature, according to the germans, is that it can be sling loaded by the standard army helicopeter... pretty sure a blackhawk could handle it. That allows it to go in with the first wave of an air assault and provide immediate mobile heavy weapons support. Two man crew...driver and gunner/commander.

Of course we didn't buy it but we had a lot of fun testing it... really really fun to drive.

Lou D.

dimarcol · Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:29 pm

I tested weasels at Fort Knox many years ago... actually a pretty cool little vehicle within its very obvious limits. The Germans only use the vehicle with the reconnaissance and weapons elements of their airmobile and mountain troops. It can mount anything from a 20mm cannon to a 120mm mortar. It's very fast...probably a road speed of 45mph or better. Its armor can stop a .50 cal round to the turret. The best feature, according to the germans, is that it can be sling loaded by the standard army helicopeter... pretty sure a blackhawk could handle it. That allows it to go in with the first wave of an air assault and provide immediate mobile heavy weapons support. Two man crew...driver and gunner/commander.

Of course we didn't buy it but we had a lot of fun testing it... really really fun to drive.

Lou D.

luigi · Tue May 02, 2006 5:10 am

As to the saddle, they look like civilian "trekking" saddle (look for "podium" or "daslö" in google)

Regards

Luigi

Pat Holscher · Sun May 14, 2006 9:14 pm

As sort of a vaguely related question here, to what exten were German WWII mountain units actually armed with G33/40s?

It's an interesting choice of rifle, given that the VZ33 was originally a Czech police carbine, and seems to contemplate being carried by a mounted man in its design. The common story on the G33/40, however, is that it was adopted by the Germans for mountain troops as it's short length made them handy. They likely were handy, but with other disadvantages, so I wonder how well that actually worked out.

Pat

Pat Holscher · Thu May 24, 2007 7:29 am

I was watching something on the History Channel this morning in which they mentioned the deployment of German mountain troops in southern Russia during WWII, but which suggested that the deployment did not result in much significant use. The same show had some fairly dramatic film footage of Soviet troops, which appeared to be conventional infantry, in some rough mountain terrain (although the show failed to note that the footage was of Soviet troops).

Anyhow, it occurs to me that I don't know if the German mountain troops were used in significant mountain efforts in WWII. I know they fought, but did they see much use in their intended role?

Pat

luigi · Fri May 25, 2007 9:37 am

They were used in the Mountains of Caucasus togheter with Romanian "Venatori da monte" (Hope spelling's right) making out the right flank of the axis front past Stalingrad. After the Russian Uranus operation they were cut-off from the rest of the front and fought isolated retreating southwards to the Crimean Peninsula until they were evacuated through Sevastopol. From my perspective it is interesting to note that the Caucasus was firstly the intended field of operation of our Alpini. After the russian summer offensive at Serafimovich, Italian sector of the front, which was fend off involving the charge of Savoia Cavalleria, the Alpini Corps was tested on a probing attack in the plains of the Don River in September to see if they were able to fight on open ground then definitely destinated to cover a sector of the Don river... but I digress... German Alpine troops saw action in Norway and in the Balkans and some in the Italian campaign, if I'm not mistaken. They were employed in the Aegean as well given that the nature of terrain, althoug not reaching alpine heigts, was very favourable for their deployment. For example the troops who fought against (and decimated) the Acqui division at Kefalonia (Captain's Corelli Mandoline anyone [y8)] ) were Gebirgsjäger.

Regards

Luigi
------------------

Pat Holscher · Sat May 02, 2009 3:12 pm

Lou, in his blog entry on German mountain troops, linked in this video clip from the German Army. Nice example of mules in use in the current German army, and nice scenery too.

http://www.bundeswehr.de/fileserving/Po ... y=youatweb

Pat Holscher · Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:13 pm

There's a query about Polish packsaddles here, which I suspect may be related to the German patterns depicted in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9959

Pat Holscher · Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 am

Current German Army packers, August 2012:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/world_armi ... hotostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/world_armi ... otostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/world_armi ... otostream/

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