Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

Although the FN was either,standard or automatic most Rhodesian Soldiers fired in what was referred to as double tap. Firing on auto was a waste of ammo whereas two well aimed shots was much better and less wasteful.

Roy

Roy, was there any use of a submachinegun by Rhodesia in this period?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

For a number of years the standard machine gun was the Sterling, used by police and army. It was distrusted by its users, as ureliable and prone to accidental discharge, not the type of weapon you would use on the back of a horse, or any where else.

The army then issued the Uzi, when it became availiable, a more robust and reliable weapon. It was designated a close combat weapon. When used by the Selous Scouts they added a drum to its side to catch expendid cartriges, when on clandistine opps to leave no trace of them being there. They also introduced a silenced version but only issued to special ops personel. The standard version was on issue to the police.

A localy made machine gun was sold to farmers and others and went under the name of Rhogun, but was not used by security forces, it was a poor replica of the Uzi okay for civilian use, but not for general millitay purposes.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Other weapons used if I have your question incorrect, were the Nato MAG 58 GPMG MMG refered to as a section weapon, Bren LMG, Sten SMG which I refered to as the Stirling. And support weapon such as the 81mm Mortor

Roy

[Dave J.]

Very intersting again on the omission of spurs. Horse can be ridden, of course, without spurs, and some riders who wear spurs don't really know how to use them properly, but in a military unit this may be a unique example.

Pat

After noting that the non spur use may be unique, I went and looked at the posts on Portugese dragoons and I see I was wrong. It would appear here that normally Portugese dragoons didn't wear them either. Indeed, in at least one of these photos the trooper is wearing canvass jungle boots, which look like a very poor riding boot:

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... PIC_ID=928

As Miguel noted in these threads, officers sometimes provided their own boots, and it appear here that in one photo an officers is wearing spurs with private purchase boots.

I threw this one in here to note the Portuguese dragoon depicted in the last photo. Note how heavily laden he is in comparison to the Rhodesian Grey's Scouts depicted in this thread.

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... IC_ID=2003

A few more photos are here, although they don't illustrate the topic mentioned here. I just decided to post the link for completeness.

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... IC_ID=2223

The Portuguese Dragoon links aren't working anymore!

I have a friend that was part of the USAF mounted patrol, at Clark AFB Guam. He said it wasn't unusual for them to wear jungle boots while riding. The old style green ones, with the Panama sole. I have been wondering how well they would work. Since it's the muddy season, and I'd like to spare my good boots.

He also said, they eventually had tall boots made locally, that were higher in the front of the knee, to protect them from the brush.

[Pat Holscher]

The Portuguese Dragoon links aren't working anymore!

Here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=928

I have a friend that was part of the USAF mounted patrol, at Clark AFB Guam. He said it wasn't unusual for them to wear jungle boots while riding. The old style green ones, with the Panama sole. I have been wondering how well they would work. Since it's the muddy season, and I'd like to spare my good boots.

I wouldn't recommend that. The use of crepe sole Rhodesian combat boots here is really in a different context. I'd stick to a purpose built riding boot if I were you, as you don't want any risk of hanging up due to improper footgear. And jungle boots all feature a Vibram sole, which is designed to grip. Additionally, jungle boots are very light on top and will afford you no protection while riding. If wrecking another pair of boots due to mud is a concern, I think you'd be better off with an appropriate, but perhaps cheaper, pair of boots suitable for riding.

[Dave J.]

Thanks for the updated link!

[Dave J.]

I found this link online today. Hopefully, it hasn't already been mentioned.....

GREY'S SCOUTS RIDE AGAIN
http://www.rhodesianforces.org/GreysScoutsRideAgain.htm


Surprisingly, it was found that the mounted infantryman was not, after all, more conspicuous because of his greater height. The natural, animal movement of the horse enabled the rider to approach a suspect in the bush within hearing range without detection, while the added height greatly in-creased the soldier's vision in 'shateen' (thick bush) and tall grass.

It was noticed that the horse's own sensitivity to sound and scent could provide an 'early-warning system' to the rider, while its speed meant that the soldier could pursue at the gallop for a short distance, or sweep and follow-up for much longer periods at an alternating canter and walk. Trotting was soon rejected by most troopers largely because of the discomfort cause by radios, ammunition-pouches and water-bottles in disarray, and because of the ease with which valuable equipment could find its way out of the saddlebags.


I thought that last part was interesting.

The article also mentions our Sgt Elderkin....


The task of training the first volunteers for the MIU - which only became known as Grey's Scouts in early 1976 - fell on the experienced shoulders of the equitation instructor, Sergeant Roy Elderkin, formerly of King's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery.

This task was bedevilled by the need to break in many of the wilder remounts at the same time as persuading the volunteers to forget the niceties of high-school technique, and learn the business of rough-riding. Sergeant Elderkin's colourful (if tact-less) persuasiveness would linger long in the mind - and on the hardened backside of those who were thrown ("Did I "'""" well give you permission to dismount?"). Elderkin's aching volunteers had to learn tricks that would have raised eye-brows in the Spanish Riding School, such as 'dismounting' (to put it euphemistically) at the gallop with 'gat' (FN) in hand and in full webbing - an exercise which probably cost the unit more bruises and broken bones than enemy action ever did.

[Pat Holscher]

I found this link online today. Hopefully, it hasn't already been mentioned.....

GREY'S SCOUTS RIDE AGAIN
http://www.rhodesianforces.org/GreysScoutsRideAgain.htm


Surprisingly, it was found that the mounted infantryman was not, after all, more conspicuous because of his greater height. The natural, animal movement of the horse enabled the rider to approach a suspect in the bush within hearing range without detection, while the added height greatly in-creased the soldier's vision in 'shateen' (thick bush) and tall grass.

It was noticed that the horse's own sensitivity to sound and scent could provide an 'early-warning system' to the rider, while its speed meant that the soldier could pursue at the gallop for a short distance, or sweep and follow-up for much longer periods at an alternating canter and walk. Trotting was soon rejected by most troopers largely because of the discomfort cause by radios, ammunition-pouches and water-bottles in disarray, and because of the ease with which valuable equipment could find its way out of the saddlebags.


I thought that last part was interesting.

The article also mentions our Sgt Elderkin....


The task of training the first volunteers for the MIU - which only became known as Grey's Scouts in early 1976 - fell on the experienced shoulders of the equitation instructor, Sergeant Roy Elderkin, formerly of King's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery.

This task was bedevilled by the need to break in many of the wilder remounts at the same time as persuading the volunteers to forget the niceties of high-school technique, and learn the business of rough-riding. Sergeant Elderkin's colourful (if tact-less) persuasiveness would linger long in the mind - and on the hardened backside of those who were thrown ("Did I "'""" well give you permission to dismount?"). Elderkin's aching volunteers had to learn tricks that would have raised eye-brows in the Spanish Riding School, such as 'dismounting' (to put it euphemistically) at the gallop with 'gat' (FN) in hand and in full webbing - an exercise which probably cost the unit more bruises and broken bones than enemy action ever did.

Interesting stuff.

Roy, if you have a chance to look at it, I'd be curious about your thoughts on the linked in information.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

I have seen this artical before, it came from an interview that Major Tony Stephens and my self gave to the Army Information Dept and some journalist who came to the Regt.

It was based on personel observations and soldiers carrying out ops, on returning we would aske for debrief's to ensure that any problems arising from patrols we could learn from and correct if neccessary. This would help further development, and training techniques when we established full training courses.

As for my more colourful language, I will put my hand up for that but it was only being cruel to be kind, with a short time to train things had to be done to ensure that soldiers were ready. It is not the way I would train soldiers to ride, but these were exceptional times, with the advent of a more balanced program there was no need to be colourful. Although to be fair there was a little artistic given to the journalist, who wrote the article especialy on broken bones and bruises, of which there were only two that I know of.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

I have seen this artical before, it came from an interview that Major Tony Stephens and my self gave to the Army Information Dept and some journalist who came to the Regt.

It was based on personel observations and soldiers carrying out ops, on returning we would aske for debrief's to ensure that any problems arising from patrols we could learn from and correct if neccessary. This would help further development, and training techniques when we established full training courses.

As for my more colourful language, I will put my hand up for that but it was only being cruel to be kind, with a short time to train things had to be done to ensure that soldiers were ready. It is not the way I would train soldiers to ride, but these were exceptional times, with the advent of a more balanced program there was no need to be colourful. Although to be fair there was a little artistic given to the journalist, who wrote the article especialy on broken bones and bruises, of which there were only two that I know of.

Roy

Thanks Roy.

Following the link posted on that site, which is the photograph attribution, takes you to another site where some of the photos are darned familiar. Indeed, I think some of those photos were posted with permission here, but I'd view the permission as very limited. I.e., limited just to us, which is why I've gone back and watermarked them. I can't say that others haven't provided their photos elsewhere to others, but I'm curious about it, so unless somebody tells me otherwise, I believe I'll drop that second website a note.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

That perticular web site has been around a long time, and was part of the Rhodesian Army Association, which dealt mainly with RLI and RAR, Grey's did not play a prominat part in it Although I have never contributed to it either verbaly or with photo's, most of the photo's on the forum wont be found elswhere.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

That perticular web site has been around a long time, and was part of the Rhodesian Army Association, which dealt mainly with RLI and RAR, Grey's did not play a prominat part in it Although I have never contributed to it either verbaly or with photo's, most of the photo's on the forum wont be found elswhere.

Roy

If it's a legitimate Rhodesian Army Association site I'll back down then, unless I should address it. I note that it indicated that it was the "Official" site of for the Grey's, which I wondered about given as I you'd veterans have to endorse that in order to make it so.

That also, I'd note, seem to give a starting date for the Grey's of 1964, although the text doesn't otherwise support it. I'm guessing the 64 date must simply refer to the UDI.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

It is only official as far as the Association is concerned, but as no former Grey's have ever contributed to it does not make it an official site, its only claim is to the records they may hold but not that many.

As for the year 1964 I dont know where that came from, as UDI came in in 1966 and like other things if they get that wrong what else.

Keep up the good work I have no interest in them only the forum.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

I noticed in the one photograph there, there was a photo of a claymore mine near a FAL. That surprised me, as claymores are an American mine, and I wouldn't have anticipated American equipment in Rhodesia. Were claymores present in Rhodesia?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

The Rhodesian Army were using claymores for a long time, the Govt were very adept at aquireing equipment from various sources. It had a sanction busting team who's job it was to get the equipment required, and of course the other source was South Africa.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Perhaps a little background to the Rhodesian Army Association, it first started as an association for retired and serving officers of the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles] and with affiliation to the old KAR [Kings African Rifles of Kenya] it was founded during the old Federation days in the fifty's and early sixty's.

When the Rhodesian Army fell under the control of the Federal Army there was no standing army only the KAR and the 1st Bat the Rhodesia Regt a Territorial Reg or reserve as you would know it as. After Independance it was thrown open to other Regts to join. But it made very little ref to Grey's, and one would think at times that Grey's did not exist, and concentrated on the other 3 Regts [ RAR, RLI and Selous Scouts], hence my small contribution to the forum to at lest have Grey's remembered somewhere.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

The Rhodesian Army were using claymores for a long time, the Govt were very adept at aquireing equipment from various sources. It had a sanction busting team who's job it was to get the equipment required, and of course the other source was South Africa.

Roy

Roy, thanks.

There's been some radio/podcast broadcasts on the country recently given that the this year more or less marks the 30th year of Zimbabwe. In one of those, I heard it claimed that it was South Africa that ultimately brought the Smith government down, more or less. I know the relationship with South Africa was mixed, but if you care to (and you certainly can choose to ignore this or any other query), could you indicate if there's any truth to that?

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

Perhaps a little background to the Rhodesian Army Association, it first started as an association for retired and serving officers of the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles] and with affiliation to the old KAR [Kings African Rifles of Kenya] it was founded during the old Federation days in the fifty's and early sixty's.

When the Rhodesian Army fell under the control of the Federal Army there was no standing army only the KAR and the 1st Bat the Rhodesia Regt a Territorial Reg or reserve as you would know it as. After Independance it was thrown open to other Regts to join. But it made very little ref to Grey's, and one would think at times that Grey's did not exist, and concentrated on the other 3 Regts [ RAR, RLI and Selous Scouts], hence my small contribution to the forum to at lest have Grey's remembered somewhere.

Roy

And we're proud to have the Grey's remembered here.

Indeed, while I'm getting ahead of myself, from time to time the Admin folks here have thought about adding a section on certain units, sort of like we've done with historical studies and sites on the website, and seeing if you'd consent to the Grey's being the first one (which would also put the laboring ore on you, I'm afraid, as you have the knowledge and the text to work from). Work pressures have prevented us from planning that out too far, but again, we're very proud to have the Grey's reflected on our site.

[Pat Holscher]

I did drop a note to their webmaster over there, using a very friendly tone. Looking through their photos, there certainly seems to be a lot of them that came from here, or at least I have questions about that. If I get a reply, I'll post it here.

If people are going to lift photos, they owe it to us to ask first, so that we may either give our permission, or ask those who own them if they care to give theirs. More recently we've taken up watermarking photos to try to prevent them from being lifted, and the majority (maybe all) of the donated photos on this thread are now watermarked.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Thank you for your comments, and I always welcome the chance to further MH site by what ever assistance I can be.

Getting back to your main question the South African Govt were largely responsible for the the demise of Rhodesia. Because many of strategic imports came to us via SA ie fuel, spares and of course ammo and equipment for the forces, they were in a position to control us. They used it very effectivley to bring us to the negotiating table, by cutting of our fuel and ammo, at one stage we were down to our last reserve ammo and could only hold on for a week, but we did have friends who put pressure on the SA Govt to release these badly needed.

But in the end it was pressure from the British Govt and others, that if the Rhodesians came to the table and hand over power, that they would ensure that SA became acceptable to them and the rest of the world. Although we had many friends in SA it was not enough, I actualy gave an address to the Rotary Club of the Orange Free State, in which I said that we needed their help but If we go your next, it did not go down to well but true.

Roy