<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CRB</i>
<br />There is some very interesting information of units in the field in Col. Tompkins book "Chasing Villa" He gives the amount and type of country traveled, the available feeds and the reasons the horses broke down. It seems the only horse that broke down were new to the unit and had not been conditioned. I have the book loaned out right now but I will post the information when I get it back.
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Thanks on that note. I'll have to dig up my copy and review that. Tompkins had some very interesting observations on all sorts of things of that type.
Pat
Limitations Part 1: Horses
This is an excerpt from “Chasing Villa” it is found in the appendix in the section named lessons learned.
<i><i>Experience Gained
My experience in Mexico operating in any enemy country far from the base, making it necessary to live off the country, has convinced me of the following.
The Soldiers Mount:
This service showed that the compactly built horse stood the campaign much better then the tall leggy type. Our horses never even got half feed and it was a constant effort to keep the big ones on the job. The little fellows also did better in the mountains and the rough places. The cavalry horse should be an animal low on his legs, of full form, one that when in low flesh does not show it-a horse whose bone, muscular development, energy and reserve power are denoted by a certain balance no often seen in horses over 15 hands 2 inches. The height of the cavalry horse should range between 14-2 and 15-2.
I cannot leave this subject of cavalry mounts without a tribute to my little horse Kingfisher. At the time of this campaign he was four years old, 14 hands 3 inches high and when in hard flesh weighed a little under 800 pounds He was an Arab stallion with some of the best Arab blood in his veins. His breeding is a matter of record and is beyond dispute.
This little horse crossed the international boundary line into Mexico March 15,1916in pursuit of Villa and his outlaw band.
From March 15,1916 to March 26th he was ridden 219 miles and from March 31st to April 12th 362 miles, across the deserts, over the mountains and though the waterless wastes of Northern Chihauhua, carrying his rider food for man and horse in addition to the usual pack an officer must take when operating in a hostile country far from the base or line of communications; a load well over 200 pounds.
After marching 219 miles in eleven days on less than half forage, on March 31st he led
a small band of horseman in a dash after Villa which ended in the fight at Parral on April
12th, covering a distance of 362 miles in 13 days. In this drive he had but little grain and
that corn which he had never before eaten, no hay, and what dead grass he could get
during the night while tethered to a short chain. He negotiated the snows of the
mountain passes, he sweated through the noon-day heat of the lower levels and he
shivered at night from the icy winds of these high altitudes.
He never showed any signs of fatigue, never lost courage, and was a constant
Inspiration to his rider. He lost but little flesh, always moved with a quick springy step
with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful. In battle he was fearless, being
quite content to keep on the firing line without fuss or objection.
From April 22nd to June 9th he was ridden 300 miles but under better conditions than he experienced previous to April 12th.. He went lame but once due to a thorn in the frog, but he did his work just the same. He was never sick and he was always ready.
Fully aware that the success of our mission depended in a large measure on the fitness of our horses, officers and men bent every energy to the care of their mounts. We did not, however, sacrifice mobility in order to save animals as a reference to our itinerary will show (from Dublan to Parral and back to San Antonio we marched about 667 miles); and also that we arrived at San Borja three days in advance of the next American column. Our horses were ready at all times for a last and supreme effort in the event of encountering Villa and his men.
It is of interest to note that in troop “K” three horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one horse had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States, one had just been received from another regiment and one was a young remount not yet hardened to service. In Troop “M” four horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States and three horses were just received fron another regiment. The horses sent from the other regiment were probably the least desirable in the regiment.
</i> </i>
<i><i>Experience Gained
My experience in Mexico operating in any enemy country far from the base, making it necessary to live off the country, has convinced me of the following.
The Soldiers Mount:
This service showed that the compactly built horse stood the campaign much better then the tall leggy type. Our horses never even got half feed and it was a constant effort to keep the big ones on the job. The little fellows also did better in the mountains and the rough places. The cavalry horse should be an animal low on his legs, of full form, one that when in low flesh does not show it-a horse whose bone, muscular development, energy and reserve power are denoted by a certain balance no often seen in horses over 15 hands 2 inches. The height of the cavalry horse should range between 14-2 and 15-2.
I cannot leave this subject of cavalry mounts without a tribute to my little horse Kingfisher. At the time of this campaign he was four years old, 14 hands 3 inches high and when in hard flesh weighed a little under 800 pounds He was an Arab stallion with some of the best Arab blood in his veins. His breeding is a matter of record and is beyond dispute.
This little horse crossed the international boundary line into Mexico March 15,1916in pursuit of Villa and his outlaw band.
From March 15,1916 to March 26th he was ridden 219 miles and from March 31st to April 12th 362 miles, across the deserts, over the mountains and though the waterless wastes of Northern Chihauhua, carrying his rider food for man and horse in addition to the usual pack an officer must take when operating in a hostile country far from the base or line of communications; a load well over 200 pounds.
After marching 219 miles in eleven days on less than half forage, on March 31st he led
a small band of horseman in a dash after Villa which ended in the fight at Parral on April
12th, covering a distance of 362 miles in 13 days. In this drive he had but little grain and
that corn which he had never before eaten, no hay, and what dead grass he could get
during the night while tethered to a short chain. He negotiated the snows of the
mountain passes, he sweated through the noon-day heat of the lower levels and he
shivered at night from the icy winds of these high altitudes.
He never showed any signs of fatigue, never lost courage, and was a constant
Inspiration to his rider. He lost but little flesh, always moved with a quick springy step
with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful. In battle he was fearless, being
quite content to keep on the firing line without fuss or objection.
From April 22nd to June 9th he was ridden 300 miles but under better conditions than he experienced previous to April 12th.. He went lame but once due to a thorn in the frog, but he did his work just the same. He was never sick and he was always ready.
Fully aware that the success of our mission depended in a large measure on the fitness of our horses, officers and men bent every energy to the care of their mounts. We did not, however, sacrifice mobility in order to save animals as a reference to our itinerary will show (from Dublan to Parral and back to San Antonio we marched about 667 miles); and also that we arrived at San Borja three days in advance of the next American column. Our horses were ready at all times for a last and supreme effort in the event of encountering Villa and his men.
It is of interest to note that in troop “K” three horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one horse had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States, one had just been received from another regiment and one was a young remount not yet hardened to service. In Troop “M” four horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States and three horses were just received fron another regiment. The horses sent from the other regiment were probably the least desirable in the regiment.
</i> </i>
-
Mike Miller
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:22 pm
This brings up one of my long sought after questions. Although I understand it varies with conditions, how did the cavalry horse subsist on the march. They obviously carried some fodder which I presume was grain for higher energy content than grass as mentioned above. Was grass enough to sustain a cavalry horse on a long patrol and about how long? The ponies of the Indians and Russians seemed to survive on the local grass but was the special bred cavalry mount too refined to do this for an extensive period? The need to condition a mount in a hostile environment is obvious just as troops need to be acclimatized. My reading of the 20th century cavalry seems to point to the need for extensive fodder being hauled to provide enough high energy food for draft horses to continue to work, was this also the case for the cavalry mount? Now I have seen where some cavalry units were able to ride long and hard for several days (5-7), but at the end they were not able to continue until considerable rest.
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Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mike Miller</i>
<br />This brings up one of my long sought after questions. Although I understand it varies with conditions, how did the cavalry horse subsist on the march. They obviously carried some fodder which I presume was grain for higher energy content than grass as mentioned above. Was grass enough to sustain a cavalry horse on a long patrol and about how long? The ponies of the Indians and Russians seemed to survive on the local grass but was the special bred cavalry mount too refined to do this for an extensive period? The need to condition a mount in a hostile environment is obvious just as troops need to be acclimatized. My reading of the 20th century cavalry seems to point to the need for extensive fodder being hauled to provide enough high energy food for draft horses to continue to work, was this also the case for the cavalry mount? Now I have seen where some cavalry units were able to ride long and hard for several days (5-7), but at the end they were not able to continue until considerable rest.
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You very ably bring up the main point.
Generally, in the 20th Century, most armies made an effort to supply feed to a mounted Army in the field. The most advanced efforts were those of the Rhodeisan Army, which had scientifically designed rations. Otherwise, however, normally, under most circumstances, most 20th Century armies would try to supply some sort of feed rations to horses. If they didn't, their horses were found to decline rapidly. Even the North Australia Observer Group, which used horses in northern Australia in World War Two, for patrolling the unsettled regions, found it necessary to devote a fair amount of their effort to locating feed for horses in those regions. A notable exception seems to be the British cavalry very early in Europe, in WWI, which actually found itself to be surprised that horses were doing pretty well on local growing feed. However, they certainly fed horses throughout the remainder of the war.
In the 19th Century the US Army frequently found that it's large "American Horses" declined and broke down on campaign, sometimes disturbingly rapidly. This had an impact on rate of march, amongst other things. (On this, it's often been noted that Crook seems to have spent an inordinate amount of time after Rosebud resting, but I wonder if he simply wasn't trying to rest his horses, to an extent). The Army found that small "Range horses" did much better on the Plains that larger American Horses, and so on some campaigns some Army units weren't mounted much differently than their Indian opponents.
It's true we don't hear much about Indian ponies breaking down, but then the Indians often had fairly substantial herds of ponies. I wonder if this didn't make them a bit like American cowboys, or Mongols, in that they were not riding one horse per man. Feed requirements did require them to move constantly, and made them very vulnerably during the winter.
In short, in all but ideal conditions, or in circumstances in which a rider has more than one mount, feed requirements were always critical. As noted above, conditioned horses do better than unconditioned ones, and smaller rangy horses did better than big ones.
Pat
<br />This brings up one of my long sought after questions. Although I understand it varies with conditions, how did the cavalry horse subsist on the march. They obviously carried some fodder which I presume was grain for higher energy content than grass as mentioned above. Was grass enough to sustain a cavalry horse on a long patrol and about how long? The ponies of the Indians and Russians seemed to survive on the local grass but was the special bred cavalry mount too refined to do this for an extensive period? The need to condition a mount in a hostile environment is obvious just as troops need to be acclimatized. My reading of the 20th century cavalry seems to point to the need for extensive fodder being hauled to provide enough high energy food for draft horses to continue to work, was this also the case for the cavalry mount? Now I have seen where some cavalry units were able to ride long and hard for several days (5-7), but at the end they were not able to continue until considerable rest.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You very ably bring up the main point.
Generally, in the 20th Century, most armies made an effort to supply feed to a mounted Army in the field. The most advanced efforts were those of the Rhodeisan Army, which had scientifically designed rations. Otherwise, however, normally, under most circumstances, most 20th Century armies would try to supply some sort of feed rations to horses. If they didn't, their horses were found to decline rapidly. Even the North Australia Observer Group, which used horses in northern Australia in World War Two, for patrolling the unsettled regions, found it necessary to devote a fair amount of their effort to locating feed for horses in those regions. A notable exception seems to be the British cavalry very early in Europe, in WWI, which actually found itself to be surprised that horses were doing pretty well on local growing feed. However, they certainly fed horses throughout the remainder of the war.
In the 19th Century the US Army frequently found that it's large "American Horses" declined and broke down on campaign, sometimes disturbingly rapidly. This had an impact on rate of march, amongst other things. (On this, it's often been noted that Crook seems to have spent an inordinate amount of time after Rosebud resting, but I wonder if he simply wasn't trying to rest his horses, to an extent). The Army found that small "Range horses" did much better on the Plains that larger American Horses, and so on some campaigns some Army units weren't mounted much differently than their Indian opponents.
It's true we don't hear much about Indian ponies breaking down, but then the Indians often had fairly substantial herds of ponies. I wonder if this didn't make them a bit like American cowboys, or Mongols, in that they were not riding one horse per man. Feed requirements did require them to move constantly, and made them very vulnerably during the winter.
In short, in all but ideal conditions, or in circumstances in which a rider has more than one mount, feed requirements were always critical. As noted above, conditioned horses do better than unconditioned ones, and smaller rangy horses did better than big ones.
Pat
-
Pat Holscher
- Society Member
- Posts: 7553
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
- Last Name: Holscher
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CRB</i>
<br />This is an excerpt from “Chasing Villa” it is found in the appendix in the section named lessons learned.
<i><i>Experience Gained
My experience in Mexico operating in any enemy country far from the base, making it necessary to live off the country, has convinced me of the following.
The Soldiers Mount:
This service showed that the compactly built horse stood the campaign much better then the tall leggy type. Our horses never even got half feed and it was a constant effort to keep the big ones on the job. The little fellows also did better in the mountains and the rough places. The cavalry horse should be an animal low on his legs, of full form, one that when in low flesh does not show it-a horse whose bone, muscular development, energy and reserve power are denoted by a certain balance no often seen in horses over 15 hands 2 inches. The height of the cavalry horse should range between 14-2 and 15-2.
I cannot leave this subject of cavalry mounts without a tribute to my little horse Kingfisher. At the time of this campaign he was four years old, 14 hands 3 inches high and when in hard flesh weighed a little under 800 pounds He was an Arab stallion with some of the best Arab blood in his veins. His breeding is a matter of record and is beyond dispute.
This little horse crossed the international boundary line into Mexico March 15,1916in pursuit of Villa and his outlaw band.
From March 15,1916 to March 26th he was ridden 219 miles and from March 31st to April 12th 362 miles, across the deserts, over the mountains and though the waterless wastes of Northern Chihauhua, carrying his rider food for man and horse in addition to the usual pack an officer must take when operating in a hostile country far from the base or line of communications; a load well over 200 pounds.
After marching 219 miles in eleven days on less than half forage, on March 31st he led
a small band of horseman in a dash after Villa which ended in the fight at Parral on April
12th, covering a distance of 362 miles in 13 days. In this drive he had but little grain and
that corn which he had never before eaten, no hay, and what dead grass he could get
during the night while tethered to a short chain. He negotiated the snows of the
mountain passes, he sweated through the noon-day heat of the lower levels and he
shivered at night from the icy winds of these high altitudes.
He never showed any signs of fatigue, never lost courage, and was a constant
Inspiration to his rider. He lost but little flesh, always moved with a quick springy step
with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful. In battle he was fearless, being
quite content to keep on the firing line without fuss or objection.
From April 22nd to June 9th he was ridden 300 miles but under better conditions than he experienced previous to April 12th.. He went lame but once due to a thorn in the frog, but he did his work just the same. He was never sick and he was always ready.
Fully aware that the success of our mission depended in a large measure on the fitness of our horses, officers and men bent every energy to the care of their mounts. We did not, however, sacrifice mobility in order to save animals as a reference to our itinerary will show (from Dublan to Parral and back to San Antonio we marched about 667 miles); and also that we arrived at San Borja three days in advance of the next American column. Our horses were ready at all times for a last and supreme effort in the event of encountering Villa and his men.
It is of interest to note that in troop “K” three horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one horse had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States, one had just been received from another regiment and one was a young remount not yet hardened to service. In Troop “M” four horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States and three horses were just received fron another regiment. The horses sent from the other regiment were probably the least desirable in the regiment.
</i> </i>
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Excellent quote, Thanks!
Pat
<br />This is an excerpt from “Chasing Villa” it is found in the appendix in the section named lessons learned.
<i><i>Experience Gained
My experience in Mexico operating in any enemy country far from the base, making it necessary to live off the country, has convinced me of the following.
The Soldiers Mount:
This service showed that the compactly built horse stood the campaign much better then the tall leggy type. Our horses never even got half feed and it was a constant effort to keep the big ones on the job. The little fellows also did better in the mountains and the rough places. The cavalry horse should be an animal low on his legs, of full form, one that when in low flesh does not show it-a horse whose bone, muscular development, energy and reserve power are denoted by a certain balance no often seen in horses over 15 hands 2 inches. The height of the cavalry horse should range between 14-2 and 15-2.
I cannot leave this subject of cavalry mounts without a tribute to my little horse Kingfisher. At the time of this campaign he was four years old, 14 hands 3 inches high and when in hard flesh weighed a little under 800 pounds He was an Arab stallion with some of the best Arab blood in his veins. His breeding is a matter of record and is beyond dispute.
This little horse crossed the international boundary line into Mexico March 15,1916in pursuit of Villa and his outlaw band.
From March 15,1916 to March 26th he was ridden 219 miles and from March 31st to April 12th 362 miles, across the deserts, over the mountains and though the waterless wastes of Northern Chihauhua, carrying his rider food for man and horse in addition to the usual pack an officer must take when operating in a hostile country far from the base or line of communications; a load well over 200 pounds.
After marching 219 miles in eleven days on less than half forage, on March 31st he led
a small band of horseman in a dash after Villa which ended in the fight at Parral on April
12th, covering a distance of 362 miles in 13 days. In this drive he had but little grain and
that corn which he had never before eaten, no hay, and what dead grass he could get
during the night while tethered to a short chain. He negotiated the snows of the
mountain passes, he sweated through the noon-day heat of the lower levels and he
shivered at night from the icy winds of these high altitudes.
He never showed any signs of fatigue, never lost courage, and was a constant
Inspiration to his rider. He lost but little flesh, always moved with a quick springy step
with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful. In battle he was fearless, being
quite content to keep on the firing line without fuss or objection.
From April 22nd to June 9th he was ridden 300 miles but under better conditions than he experienced previous to April 12th.. He went lame but once due to a thorn in the frog, but he did his work just the same. He was never sick and he was always ready.
Fully aware that the success of our mission depended in a large measure on the fitness of our horses, officers and men bent every energy to the care of their mounts. We did not, however, sacrifice mobility in order to save animals as a reference to our itinerary will show (from Dublan to Parral and back to San Antonio we marched about 667 miles); and also that we arrived at San Borja three days in advance of the next American column. Our horses were ready at all times for a last and supreme effort in the event of encountering Villa and his men.
It is of interest to note that in troop “K” three horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one horse had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States, one had just been received from another regiment and one was a young remount not yet hardened to service. In Troop “M” four horses were abandoned on the trail from exhaustion, and that of these one had been pronounced unfit for service before we left the United States and three horses were just received fron another regiment. The horses sent from the other regiment were probably the least desirable in the regiment.
</i> </i>
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Excellent quote, Thanks!
Pat
<i>"They obviously carried some fodder which I presume was grain for higher energy content than grass as mentioned above."</i>
From what I have read, the units bought corn locally on this campaign as a grain. Col. Tompkins writes that during the campaign the units would pay <u>cash</u> for the corn, which helped in relations with the locals, as the Mexican federal troops and the Villista's would either just take the corn or pay with a requesition
From what I have read, the units bought corn locally on this campaign as a grain. Col. Tompkins writes that during the campaign the units would pay <u>cash</u> for the corn, which helped in relations with the locals, as the Mexican federal troops and the Villista's would either just take the corn or pay with a requesition
-
Pat Holscher
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- Last Name: Holscher
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CRB</i>
<br /><i>"They obviously carried some fodder which I presume was grain for higher energy content than grass as mentioned above."</i>
From what I have read, the units bought corn locally on this campaign as a grain. Col. Tompkins writes that during the campaign the units would pay <u>cash</u> for the corn, which helped in relations with the locals, as the Mexican federal troops and the Villista's would either just take the corn or pay with a requisition
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A wise policy indeed.
Indeed, while the various contestants in the Mexican Revolution probably largely seized by necessity (except perhaps Huerta's forces, very early on, which probably could have paid), that fact helps demonstrate one of the sad facts of the revolution, that being that no matter who won, the Mexican people tended to loose, as the victors regarded the people land as theirs as if by right of conquest. Of the various leaders, probably only Modero, who was assassinated after his early success, and Zapata, who was likewise assassinated, would have lead the country to another result.
Pat
<br /><i>"They obviously carried some fodder which I presume was grain for higher energy content than grass as mentioned above."</i>
From what I have read, the units bought corn locally on this campaign as a grain. Col. Tompkins writes that during the campaign the units would pay <u>cash</u> for the corn, which helped in relations with the locals, as the Mexican federal troops and the Villista's would either just take the corn or pay with a requisition
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A wise policy indeed.
Indeed, while the various contestants in the Mexican Revolution probably largely seized by necessity (except perhaps Huerta's forces, very early on, which probably could have paid), that fact helps demonstrate one of the sad facts of the revolution, that being that no matter who won, the Mexican people tended to loose, as the victors regarded the people land as theirs as if by right of conquest. Of the various leaders, probably only Modero, who was assassinated after his early success, and Zapata, who was likewise assassinated, would have lead the country to another result.
Pat
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Pat Holscher
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- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
- Last Name: Holscher
Bump.