Death's Head and Cavalry units

[stablesgt]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1

[stablesgt]

As to the houses built before say 1920, the swastika was a good luck symbol. I now of an old skyscraper built circa 1925 that has elevator doors bordered in small repeating swatiskas. They are set square on one of their legs rather than canted like the NSDAP symbol. Was it the 45th Inf Division that had swastika shoulder patch before 1941?

[stablesgt]

Pat,
as to the movie, I should have understood the point from the start. She didn't do anything remarkable like discovering radium but, yes, she would make a good icon for a story line about the era. However, that has already been done in an english language biography of her and she wrote two books of her own about the same theme.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by wkambic
Didn't one of Britsh Princes wear swastikas to a party a year or so ago?

Those who would wear some the T-shirts I've seen are cetainly not the "creme de la creme" of society. At least once a month one of our local judges has to send a defendant out of for "wardrobe change" due to clothing bearing offensive or insulting mottos.

One "skinhead" had the "SS" logo tatooed on noggin. He wore a hat when he came in; a bailiff made him take it off. I thought he was gonna shoot the youngster, as he'd been torpedo'ed a couple of times in the North Atlantic. He was so angry we sent him to work the other courtroom.

From our own culture we have the problems of Confederate symbology.

On the other hand when I lived in Milwaukee in the '60s and '70s you could see old houses with swastika symbology in leaded glass windows and other decoration (the houses were all built in German neigborhoods from 1900 to 1920).

While I'm not a big supporter of PC concepts, it seems to me that thoughtful folks understand that some things are HIGHLY offensive to some of their fellow citizens and that those things might be best left in historical displays, not made into a T-shirt.

But, then, maybe I'm just too old-fashioned.



Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

I don't do any criminal law, but occasionally I'll go through the Court when a docket call is going on. I'm often amazed how stupidly people are dressed for something that's pretty serious.

A while back I wondered through when a criminal trial was going on, and the defense witnesses were out in the hall. Their dress was more than enough to convince you that the defendant was guilty of something.

Questions on how to dress for a trial are pretty common for attorneys. I used to tell people to dress like they were going to church, which most people reacted to well. I don't use that instruction any more, as it seems not to work. On the other hand, I've noticed that it seems to be the case, at least here, that juries and courts generally expect people to dress cleanly, if not formally. No t-shirts, but here suits and ties have become almost completely a thing of the past for the parties and lay witnesses. The last couple of trials I have done the parties and lay witnesses never appeared, on either side, with tie or coat. I don't think any of them owned them. Only the lawyers and the experts appeared in tie and coat. That's the rule here now.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by stablesgt
As to the houses built before say 1920, the swastika was a good luck symbol. I now of an old skyscraper built circa 1925 that has elevator doors bordered in small repeating swatiskas. They are set square on one of their legs rather than canted like the NSDAP symbol. Was it the 45th Inf Division that had swastika shoulder patch before 1941?

Prior to WWII the swastika was a common design element in many buildings. The floor of the high school I went to, built in the 1920s, had little swastikas in the tile. A building on Main Street in Thermopolis, WY, has very prominent ones in the brick work.

A local ranch had the design as a brand for many years, far prior to WWII. It quit using it only locally, although I'm sure lots of people made comments about it.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by stablesgt
Pat,
as to the movie, I should have understood the point from the start. She didn't do anything remarkable like discovering radium but, yes, she would make a good icon for a story line about the era. However, that has already been done in an english language biography of her and she wrote two books of her own about the same theme.

Do you recommend any of these books?

Pat

[Kelton Oliver]

Originally posted by stablesgt
As to the houses built before say 1920, the swastika was a good luck symbol. I now of an old skyscraper built circa 1925 that has elevator doors bordered in small repeating swatiskas. They are set square on one of their legs rather than canted like the NSDAP symbol. Was it the 45th Inf Division that had swastika shoulder patch before 1941?

It was indeed the 45th ID. The swastika was an American symbol associated with good luck in the Oklahoma area and appeared in a lot of contexts. Somewhere I have a picture of a saddle built in Oklahoma about 1900 adorned with a swastika motif. It's also found in the brick and/or tile work of a lot of old buildings in Oklahoma. Just prior to WWII, the 45th ID changed their shoulder patch insignia to a Thunderbird, which is also historically an American Indian good luck symbol.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Kelton Oliver

Originally posted by stablesgt
As to the houses built before say 1920, the swastika was a good luck symbol. I now of an old skyscraper built circa 1925 that has elevator doors bordered in small repeating swatiskas. They are set square on one of their legs rather than canted like the NSDAP symbol. Was it the 45th Inf Division that had swastika shoulder patch before 1941?

It was indeed the 45th ID. The swastika was an American symbol associated with good luck in the Oklahoma area and appeared in a lot of contexts. Somewhere I have a picture of a saddle built in Oklahoma about 1900 adorned with a swastika motif. It's also found in the brick and/or tile work of a lot of old buildings in Oklahoma. Just prior to WWII, the 45th ID changed their shoulder patch insignia to a Thunderbird, which is also historically an American Indian good luck symbol. For those who haven't seen it, here is a Thunderbird patch on a soldier:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/ ... NP0001.jpg

Kelton, that link doesn't go where ever you meant it to, unless you wanted it to go to a page with a kitten licking a paw, and a woman with a tattooed shoulder. . .

But, the Thunderbird patch shows up here in a recent photo, in the thread on photos from "over there" which is on a "sticky" thread up above. There you can see a soldier in Afghanistan with a Thunderbird on one shoulder, and the 1st ID patch on the other.

Pat

[stablesgt]

Pat,
The only one in English is "The Kaiser's Daughter" edited by Robert Vacha 1977. I guess it is an English translation of her German published memoirs. I read it some 15-20 years ago and don't remember anything negative from a reviewer standpoint. Looked on ABE and it is available for about $12 I think.

[stablesgt]

The skyscraper I mentioned is in Ohio.

[Philip S]

Originally posted by stablesgt
The skyscraper I mentioned is in Ohio.

LeVeque Tower--Columbus?

[stablesgt]

Yep, that's the one. Originally known as the AIU (American Insurance Union) Tower.

[Pat Holscher]

Given as it's been sort of touched on in this widely straying thread, I'll go ahead and ask it, as I wonder about it.

When did the t-shirt as outwear, with slogan, come about?

I'd have thought these came into existance in the 70s or so. But in surfing around the net a while back I ran across a WWII vintage photograph of a small child, of a soldier, wearing a t-shirt with something printed on it. Pretty much like those t-shirts you see on sale at PXs today.

I have never seen photos of people wearing t-shirts with slogans earlier than that. Usually when you see a photo of a man wearing a t-shirt prior to that (and for a long time after that) you know it was taken in an informal, or work, setting in very hot weather or conditions. And you never see photos of women wearing t-shirts earlier than that.

I have plenty of t-shirts with something printed on them myself, although as I've gotten older I rarely wear only a t-shirt. But they've become such a staple of American clothing, and increasingly ruder over time, that they probably help contribute to an atmosphere where a major American retailer can sell t-shirts with an SS variant of the Death's Head on them and be clueless about their meaning.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Kelton Oliver

Originally posted by stablesgt
As to the houses built before say 1920, the swastika was a good luck symbol. I now of an old skyscraper built circa 1925 that has elevator doors bordered in small repeating swatiskas. They are set square on one of their legs rather than canted like the NSDAP symbol. Was it the 45th Inf Division that had swastika shoulder patch before 1941?

It was indeed the 45th ID. The swastika was an American symbol associated with good luck in the Oklahoma area and appeared in a lot of contexts. Somewhere I have a picture of a saddle built in Oklahoma about 1900 adorned with a swastika motif. It's also found in the brick and/or tile work of a lot of old buildings in Oklahoma. Just prior to WWII, the 45th ID changed their shoulder patch insignia to a Thunderbird, which is also historically an American Indian good luck symbol.

Images courtesy of Mr. Michael E. Gonzales, Director, 45th Infantry Division Museum, Oklahoma City, OK, http://www.45thdivisionmuseum.com/index.html

Thanks also to Couvi.


Pat

[Philip S]

some more pictures of German Hussars:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=0e

[Philip S]

There is a very good picture of a United States Hussar with a death's head symbol on his cap on p. 71 of "Uniforms of the Civil War" by Smith and Field.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Philip S
some more pictures of German Hussars:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=0e

Wow. Quite the photos on that one.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Philip S
There is a very good picture of a United States Hussar with a death's head symbol on his cap on p. 71 of "Uniforms of the Civil War" by Smith and Field.

I wonder if that's the same one in the Brassey book? The Brassey one is a portrait.

I wonder how many photos of this unit might exit. I have to suspect that in the field they abandoned that look, but I certainly don't know that.

Pat

[Trooper]

I don't know if this is as represented. The cross looks Prussian/German to me?

Dušan

[Trooper]

Bounty Hunter Badge.

Dušan