Death's Head and Cavalry units

[Pat Holscher]

Another great example, courtesy of Stablesgt:


No reproduction without permission.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />Another great example, courtesy of Stablesgt (no reproduction without his athority).



Pat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is this a German Hussar, or a British one?

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

In looking back over this grim topic its interesting to note that both the British and German uses appear to stem from remembrances of recently deceased leaders. From that perhaps we can take it that they were adopting a widely known symbol for death, if not an intentionally scary one.

The Jolly Roger, according to what little I can find on it, seems to have had a similar origin to the extent anyone can tell. They death's head was a well known symbol associated with mortality, and there conveyed a message they wanted to convey. I guess it is effective, as it is still used that way.

In use, I've found that at least German (from various principalities) cavalry and infantry units have used it, the British have used as demonstrated above, the United States Hussar, a NJ State unit in the Civil War used it, Finish cavalrymen unofficially used it, and the Chilean Husars de Meurtes used it. Anyone else?

Pat

[Trooper]

As far as I can tell no British Hussars used the death's head - only Light Dragoons or Lancers.

Dušan

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Trooper
As far as I can tell no British Hussars used the death's head - only Light Dragoons or Lancers.

Dušan

Thanks Dusan, I was indeed creating confusion in my statement above.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Excellent disucssion of hte Totenkopf device, courtesy of Russell Folsom:

As has been previously noted, the adoption of the ‘Totenkopf’ (death’s
head) as a distinctive and pre-eminent emblem of the SS (Schutzstaffel) can certainly be traced to an indirect, though meaningful heraldic lineage from both Prussian and Brunswickian units of the former Imperial Reich; the elite Prussian ‘Leib-Husaren’ (Royal Bodyguard Hussars) formed in 1741, after the death of Friedrich-Wilhelm I, and later in the early 19th century by the mounted troops of the (Herzogtum) Brunschweig-Husaren Rgt.17, and the 3.Bataillon of Braunschweig-Inf.Rgt.92. These elite soldiers on horseback who wore distinctive black uniforms and ‘Pelzmützen’ (fur busbies and kolbacks made of bearskin other prized pelts) adorned with the skull and crossbones were variously known as ‘Totenkopfhusaren’, and ‘Schwarze Totenkopfhusaren.’ The reputation of these units as ‘elite’ formations was firmly established in the German national psyche long before the Nazis decided to appropriate such distinctive insignia as their own.

The original Prussian ‘totenkopf’ emblem was patterned after the jawless skull and crossed bones which were embroidered in silver on the black funereal shrouds of Friedrich-Wilhelm I lying in state at Potsdam in 1741.

As a ‘memento mori’ the Imperial Prussian Leib-Husaren Regiments Nr.1 & 2 later took black as the color of their uniform, and the ‘totenkopf’ as their formation’s insignia, with the motto “Mit Gott Für König Und Vaterland” emblazoned in a scroll above. The Duchy (Herzogtum) of Braunschweig later adopted a similar though uniquely styled skull and crossbones insignia in 1809 for their 17.Husaren-Regiment (and later 3./JR92), with only minor differences in the appearance of the ‘totenkopf und knochen’- (ie. the original Prussian style ‘skull’ faced to the right and had the bones placed behind the skull, while the Brunswick ‘skull’ faced directly forward and crossed the bones below the skull.) Later in the 19th century, the distinctive Braunschweiger (17.H-R) ‘totenkopf’ was sometimes accompanied

by a scrolled badge of honor placed above the skull which read: “Peninsula

Sicilian Waterloo Mars La Tour” marking distinctive regimental battle-honours.

During the first world war the ‘totenkopf’ insignia was unofficially co-opted by a number of frontline assault detachments (Stosstruppen), and a number of flieger units, such as Leutnant Georg v. Hantelmann, a pilot of the Luftstreitkräfte’s ‘Schutzstaffeln’ who employed the ‘totenkopf’ as his personal emblem. The ‘Totenkopf’ symbol represented not only a link to the

well known elite formations of the past, but a certain boldness and derring-do in the face of mortality. As the Weltkreig ended, so ingrained was the associative symbolism of the ‘totenkopf’ with the best and bravest

of former Imperial German glory that a number of “Freikorps” (right-wing free-lance troops) adopted the symbol while fighting Bolshevik revolutionaries both at home and in the German influenced states of the Baltikum (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania) during the tumultuous period following the end of the war. For the former ‘frontkämpfer’ who returned home from the trenches to face ‘provisional Socialist regimes’ of Red ‘Spartacists’ which had taken over their provinces and hometowns, the ‘totenkopf’ emblazoned in white paint on the crest of their stahlhelms boldly signified their link to the traditionalism of the former Imperial Reich, and an unwavering opposition to all things Bolshevik. Early recruits and cadre for both the Nazi SA (Sturmabteilung) and the SS emanated from the ranks of these various Freikorps, most notably from the “Erhardt Naval Brigade” which itself employed variations of both the swastika and the deaths-head (totenkopf) as distinctive battle-insignia in roughly the same

period as the NSDAP adopted them. (The ‘Erhardt Brigade’ was later briefly

absorbed into the Gesamt SS in 1933, before being disbanded.)

The first distinctive official NSDAP usage of the ‘totenkopf’ as standard uniform insignia can be traced to members of the so-called “Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler’ in 1923, (although photographic evidence of use by the earlier SA bodyguard ‘Stabswache’ unit ca.1921 is apparently extant.) The ‘Stosstrupp

AH’, formed in May 1923, was a small group of handpicked toughs led by Julius Schreck and Josef Berchtold who protected Hitler’s person during his various public speaking engagements, and swore a personal oath of fealty not to the Party, but to Hitler himself. Considering themselves an ‘elite’ in the tradition of the Imperial ‘Leibwache’ (bodyguards), to differentiate themselves from the SA cadre from which they originated, they wore distinctive cap badges of the Prussian-style jawless death’s head which were appropriated from a found stock of surplus Imperial army badges. When the successor bodyguard unit to the ‘Stosstrupp AH’, the SS (‘Schutzstaffel’) was officially formed on Hitler’s order in 1925, the Munich firm of Deschler was employed to restrike thousands of copies of the original Prussian-style totenkopf badge as their official distinctive insignia. Shamelessly adopting the black uniform of the Imperial Hussars, the early cadres of the SS imagined themselves the successors to the grand traditions of the ‘Schwarze Totenkopfhusaren’, and were fond of singing the old regimental ballad which included this refrain:

In Black we are dressed,
In Blood we are drenched,
Death’s Head on our helmets.
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We stand unshaken!

But the story of the NS-period ‘totenkopf’ (death’s head) does not quite end there. From roughly 1923 to 1934, the SS (and its antecedents) used the jawless style death’s head patterned directly on the Imperial Prussian emblem as their own. However, in 1934, the emergent German Army Panzertruppe (armored troops) adopted the exact same symbol of the jawless Prussian death’s head as a unique arm of service insignia, which would be mounted on facing ‘kragenspiegel’ (collar tabs) of their new specially designed black

Panzer uniform (Sonderbekleidung für Panzertruppen). Rather than compete for exclusive rights with a national formation more naturally entitled to the old insignia and traditions of the orignial Prussian “Leib-Husaren’ such as the Panzertroops, (as well as certain cavalry formations which continued to used the Prussian totenkopf); RFSS Himmler deigned to redesign the SS death’s head insignia into a unique and distinctive symbol by adding a “jaw” to the lower skull which would henceforth mark the SS style death’s head into what has since been likened to a ‘grinsend’ (grinning), or ‘lachende’

(laughing) skull. Uniform and insignia specialists of the era routinely gauge the period of original SS items by this 1934 ‘totenkopf’ style demarcation. As for the continuity of lineage concerning the traditional Prussian ‘totenkopf’ emblem as used by the German armed forces during the Nazi period and Second World War, Brian L. Davis indicates in his “German Army Uniforms and Insignia, 1933-1945”, that besides the Panzerwaffe in general, only a few, mostly Kavallerie units, were entitled to wear the ‘totenkopf’ badge as a cap and epaulette (mütze u. schulterklappen) unit
distinction:

“The Totenkopf, with the bones positioned directly behind the skull, (Prussian style) was originally worn by the Prussian 1st and 2nd Bodyguard

Hussars. The insignia worn by the 1.Leib-Husaren-Regiment was continued by

the 1st Squadron of the 5.Reiter-Regiment in 1921. In 1933 it was worn by the Regimental Staff and the 1st, 5th and 11th Squadrons of 5.Kavallerie-Regiment. The insignia worn by the 2.Leib-Husaren-Regiment was, in 1921, worn by the 2nd Squadron of 5.Reiter-Regiment. In 1933 this Totenkopf was worn by the Regimental Staff, the 1st Abteilung, and 2nd and

4th Squadrons of 5.Kavallerie-Regiment.

The Totenkopf, with bones crossed directly below the skull (Brunswick
style)
was originally worn by the Brunswick Infanterie-Regiment 92 and, sometime after 1921 during the Reichswehr period, this tradition badge was passed on to the 1st and 4th Companies of 17.Infanterie-Regiment. On 10th February 1939 this honour was extended to include the Regimental Staff, the 1st and

2nd Battalions, and 13th and 14th Companies of 17.Infanterie-Regiment. The

insignia worn by the Brunswick Hussar Regiment 17 was continued in 1921 by the 4th Squadron of 13.Reiter-Regiment, and in 1939 by the 2nd Abteilung of 13.Kavallerie-Regiment.” (pp.87-89)

[Davis also mentions that a distinctive cuff-title: “FELDMARSCHALL VON MACKENSEN” was instituted on 6th December 1944 and issued to all ranks of the 5.Kavallerie-Regiment.] (p.79.)

- RF

Pat

[stablesgt]

The photo with the hussar with "jolly roger" badge on his busby with his smiling wife is of the 1913 newly minted Duke and Duchess of Braunschweig (Brunswick) soon after their marriage. His uniform is that of the 17th Hussars (Braunschweig). The wife is Victoria Luise (seen in the other photos), only daughter of Emperor William II. In the other photos she makes her appearance as the honorary colonel-in-chief of the 2nd Life Hussars (Prussia). The lance pennants in the mounted group photo also have the skull & crossbones in the style seen on the cap of Friedrich Leopold.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by stablesgt
The photo with the hussar with "jolly roger" badge on his busby with his smiling wife is of the 1913 newly minted Duke and Duchess of Braunschweig (Brunswick) soon after their marriage. His uniform is that of the 17th Hussars (Braunschweig). The wife is Victoria Luise (seen in the other photos), only daughter of Emperor William II. In the other photos she makes her appearance as the honorary colonel-in-chief of the 2nd Life Hussars (Prussia). The lance pennants in the mounted group photo also have the skull & crossbones in the style seen on the cap of Friedrich Leopold.

Very interesting, thanks.

I always wonder what happened to these people when WWI turned out so badly, and there was so much upheaval thereafter. What did happen to them following WWI?

Pat

[JV Puleo]

Here's the Wickepedia entry on Victoria Louise...I was amazed to read she only died in 1980

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_V ... of_Prussia

Joe Puleo

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by JV Puleo
Here's the Wickepedia entry on Victoria Louise...I was amazed to read she only died in 1980

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_V ... of_Prussia

Joe Puleo

That is amazing. Her photos above appear to be so much part of another era, that it's hard to imagine her living most of her life in ours.

I hit on the link to her husbands biography and see where he died in 1953. It indicates that they "retired" following World War One, when they lost their royal positions in Germany. Apparently they lived the rest of their lives out on various estates. One of their kids married into the Greek royal family.

Really hard to imagine.

Pat

[stablesgt]

As JV has already noted, Viktoria Luise passed away in 1980. Her husband, Ernst August, the guy with the jolly roger badge, died in 1953. Friedrich Leopold died in 1931. Crown Prince William, who led the German army attacking Verdun during WWI, died in 1951.

In general, unlike Russia and Austria, things were done more legalistically in Germany regarding the former sovereign rulers of the federal states. No group shootings in basement rooms or exile and total dispossession. In Germany, Bavaria being an exception, formal abdications were executed and the rulers went into exile in neighboring countries until things cooled down and then returned to Germany as private citizens. In 1926, a law was adopted sorting out disposition of public versus private property. For instance, in Prussia, the physical crown and other crown jewels and the big palaces became assets of the state but the various former rulers and princes kept their private estates and villas. I believe, they could also use their former titles legally, not just by social convention. For instance, instead of having to sign a real estate contract as Viktoria Luise von Welf (her husband's family name) she could sign as Viktoria Luise, Duchess of Brunswick.

Of course, all that changed in 1945. Unless temporarily appropiated by Western allies, the families got to keep their properties in the western zones. A related story would be the theft of the crown jewels of Hesse by certain US Army officers who caught got and court martialed. Crown prince William was still sitting in his palace in Potsdam until April 1945 when he had to skedaddle before oncoming Russians. That palace is where the Potsdam Conference took place. Not restored to family, it is now half hotel and half Potsdam Conference museum. The Potsdam town villa of one of the other Kaiser's sons ended up as an East German army facility. Don't know what it is today but it highly unlikely it is back in the hands of the family.

[Brian P.]

I had a friend who was an officer in (I believe) the 92nd Brunswick infantry regiment (mechanized) of the West German army in the mid-1980's. At that point, they were still wearing a small deaths head device on their field caps. He told me that it was a tradition in some Brunswicker units going back to the Napoleonic Wars. I wonder if they still wear it.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Brian P.
I had a friend who was an officer in (I believe) the 92nd Brunswick infantry regiment (mechanized) of the West German army in the mid-1980's. At that point, they were still wearing a small deaths head device on their field caps. He told me that it was a tradition in some Brunswicker units going back to the Napoleonic Wars. I wonder if they still wear it.

That was something I was wondering. It seems to me I've seen a German death's head depicted on a West German black beret, but I don't know if I'm recalling that correctly.

If so, it'd be an interesting example of a long standing symbol surviving a very unfortunate association that it picked up in WWII.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

You know, there's a made for tv movie in here somewhere about the life of Viktoria Louise, assuming that people would be willing to watch a show about the Prussian royal family. Probably people would now.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Straying a bit from the hat device, what was the origin of these hats? I have it in mind that they were a Slavic hat that everyone else picked up in order to effect the hussar appearance. They look hot.

Pat

[stablesgt]

Pat,
Hunh, movie "in here somewhere"? What did you mean? Me want movie.

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by stablesgt
Pat,
Hunh, movie "in here somewhere"? What did you mean? Me want movie.

Sorry. What I meant was, her story would make for a good tv type movie. But it hasn't been done. I'd guess that not too many folks would have been interested in that sort of treatment of the life of a German princess, as opposed to a Russian one. But it has a lot of obvious drama to it, and it'd be interesting.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

In a weird current news twist to this story, it is apparently the case that Walmart is in trouble for selling t-shirts that feature the SS variant (with lower jaw) of the death's head. A net search revealed a link that indeed showed the Walmart t-shirts to be using a death's head identical to the one used by the SS. I'd link it in, but the same website had some other t-shirts depicted there that offend my delicate sensibilities, let alone my sartorial tastes.so you'll just have to do your own search.

Anyhow, how odd. A symbol swiped by the SS, and then modified so as to be distinct from the Hussar symbol, dating back to a funeral of a long passed Prussian prince, ends up on Wal-Mart t-shirts in an effort to hawk something as cool. Weird.

Pat

[wkambic]

Didn't one of Britsh Princes wear swastikas to a party a year or so ago?

Those who would wear some the T-shirts I've seen are cetainly not the "creme de la creme" of society. At least once a month one of our local judges has to send a defendant out of for "wardrobe change" due to clothing bearing offensive or insulting mottos.

One "skinhead" had the "SS" logo tatooed on noggin. He wore a hat when he came in; a bailiff made him take it off. I thought he was gonna shoot the youngster, as he'd been torpedo'ed a couple of times in the North Atlantic. He was so angry we sent him to work the other courtroom.

From our own culture we have the problems of Confederate symbology.

On the other hand when I lived in Milwaukee in the '60s and '70s you could see old houses with swastika symbology in leaded glass windows and other decoration (the houses were all built in German neigborhoods from 1900 to 1920).

While I'm not a big supporter of PC concepts, it seems to me that thoughtful folks understand that some things are HIGHLY offensive to some of their fellow citizens and that those things might be best left in historical displays, not made into a T-shirt.

But, then, maybe I'm just too old-fashioned.



Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

[Trooper]

Bill,
Old fashioned maybe - but sensible.
Prince Harry did indeed wear a swastika adorned uniform to a fancy dress party a little while back. A case of insensitive juvenile misjudgement - I hope. It was regarded as very offensive by many of his elders. I further hope his judgement has improved since he became a troop leader in the Blues and Royals.

Dušan