JN-3

[Couvi]

Curtiss JN-3 in the Mexican Punitive Expedition

In 1916 the Curtiss JN-3 aircraft of the 1st Aero Squadron left Fort Sill for Columbus, NM, after the raid by Villa. They followed railroad tracks as there were few other landmarks, or other navigational aids, for a pilot to use. Several aircraft were lost in transit.

The JN-3 had four horsepower more than necessary for take-off at the altitude of Columbus, NM. One misfire on takeoff could be disastrous. The propellers were of laminated wood, glued together then carved. The dry climate of the South West caused the glue to release. The problem was resolved by soaking the props in horse troughs to maintain the level of moisture needed.

In an odd twist, they were used to locate a lost column of cavalry.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... notam4.pdf

As an aside, when trucks were purchased on the docks on the East Coast and re-routed to New Mexico, they were without bodies. The plan was to bolt Escort Wagon bodies on them upon arrival at Columbus. Upon arrival it was discovered that the holes didn’t match. Fortunately, the Air Corps had <u>a</u> drill and the problem was resolved. To paraphrase, “For want of a drill the battle was almost lost.”

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier sans Cheval"</i>

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Couvi
Curtiss JN-3 in the Mexican Punitive Expedition

In 1916 the Curtiss JN-3 aircraft of the 1st Aero Squadron left Fort Sill for Columbus, NM, after the raid by Villa. They followed railroad tracks as there were few other landmarks, or other navigational aids, for a pilot to use. Several aircraft were lost in transit.

The JN-3 had four horsepower more than necessary for take-off at the altitude of Columbus, NM. One misfire on takeoff could be disastrous. The propellers were of laminated wood, glued together then carved. The dry climate of the South West caused the glue to release. The problem was resolved by soaking the props in horse troughs to maintain the level of moisture needed.

In an odd twist, they were used to locate a lost column of cavalry.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... notam4.pdf

As an aside, when trucks were purchased on the docks on the East Coast and re-routed to New Mexico, they were without bodies. The plan was to bolt Escort Wagon bodies on them upon arrival at Columbus. Upon arrival it was discovered that the holes didn’t match. Fortunately, the Air Corps had <u>a</u> drill and the problem was resolved. To paraphrase, “For want of a drill the battle was almost lost.”

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier sans Cheval"</i>

One of the really interesting things about this, the almost final era of the cavalry, is that the old and new methods and technologies were complimentary at first. That story is often missed. We often here how the PE proved the utility of vehicles, or that aircraft demonstrated that cavalry was at an end. But, at first, this isn't true. Vehicle liberated horse cavalry from the slow wagon based supply transport, and aircraft aided its reconnaissance function.

Pat

[Harve Curry]

My grandpa had a surplus Jenny. I didn't realize they were so under powered. I think his was a JN4. His stories and photos of aviation, Billy Mitchell and WWI, motivated me to get my private vfr lic. He said he crashed and flipped the Jenny in a mud puddle he didn't realize was there till it was to late.

yours,
Bill Weddle
Black Range Mnts.of New Mexico

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Harve Curry
My grandpa had a surplus Jenny. I didn't realize they were so under powered. I think his was a JN4. His stories and photos of aviation, Billy Mitchell and WWI, motivated me to get my private vfr lic. He said he crashed and flipped the Jenny in a mud puddle he didn't realize was there till it was to late.

yours,
Bill Weddle
Black Range Mnts.of New Mexico

The JN-4 was actually an improved model, as the JN-3 was found to be dangerously underpowered during the Punitive Expedition. The JN-4 had a 90 hp engine, and was capable of 75 mph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JN-4

Imagine what the JN-3 must have been like.

It's almost unimaginable to think of what these early pilots were being asked to do. Couvi notes the limitations of the JN-3 above, and they were found to be very limited in capability during the Punitive Expedition. Every time a pilot was asked to take off, he was really being asked to risk his life just trying to get the thing in the air.

Something that's really odd to ponder is that the PE use of the JN-3 is only 23 years prior to World War Two. In that short amount of time airplanes had advanced to the point that they bore almost no resemblance to the barely useful JN-3. We think we are in a constant state of change now, but the early 20th Century saw changes in transportation that came so fast its amazing. A pilot entering the Army in 1916, and hoping for a career, would have retired in 1946, by which time he would have gone from a 75 mph aircraft to the very first jets. Fighters were only in service for a few years before they were obsolete, and in the space of a decade there'd be several generations of new aircraft.

Pat

[Jim Bewley]

In 1916 the Curtiss JN-3 aircraft of the 1st Aero Squadron left Fort Sill for Columbus, NM, after the raid by Villa. They followed railroad tracks as there were few other landmarks, or other navigational aids, for a pilot to use. Several aircraft were lost in transit.

I was always told that "IFR" really meant "I follow railroads". There you have the source. [:D]

Jim

[Tim_McShane]

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
We think we are in a constant state of change now, but the early 20th Century saw changes in transportation that came so fast its amazing. A pilot entering the Army in 1916, and hoping for a career, would have retired in 1946, by which time he would have gone from a 75 mph aircraft to the very first jets. Fighters were only in service for a few years before they were obsolete, and in the space of a decade there'd be several generations of new aircraft.
Pat

Ain't that the truth! I've spoken with several former employees of Avro (Canada) Aircraft; one learned to fly on a Tiger Moth biplane, was a test pilot on North America's first passenger jet, and finished with Avro as chief of test flight, dealing with Mach 2+ fighters--all within about 15 years. Janusz Zurakowski, WWII ace and chief test pilot on the Avro Arrow project, told me his first flight was at a fair--a glider that was launched by a giant rubber band pulled back by six strong men!

Tim

[Pat Holscher]

I was recently looking at some stats on these old planes. Man, were they slow by modern terms.

Even the much more modern Piper Cub just crawled.

[Couvi]

Pat,

I was recently looking at some stats on these old planes. Man, were they slow by modern terms.

Even the much more modern Piper Cub just crawled.

It is said of the Piper Cub that it was so slow it could just barely kill you.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,

I was recently looking at some stats on these old planes. Man, were they slow by modern terms.

Even the much more modern Piper Cub just crawled.

It is said of the Piper Cub that it was so slow it could just barely kill you.

My son recently bought the new version of Microsoft's Flight Simulator. He had several prior versions. Between the past versions, and the new one, both the JN-3 and the Cub are represented. Man, even in the game (which is amazingly realistic), they are slow.

The new simulator, on the part on the JN-3, claims that 85% of US pilots in WWII started off their flying carreers on the Cub. I wonder if that's correct. Was it used as a trainer?

I think the Cub was used as an artillery spotter. Now realizing how slow it was, I don't know how they weren't all shot down. They'd be easy picking, I"d think, for machinegunners on the ground.

I suppose, even as slow as they were, the speed of the JN-3 was a lot faster than that of the fastest horse, so in relative terms, perhaps they're only slow from a modern prospective. I guess that would be true of the first autos too.

[Varangian]

One of the really interesting things about this, the almost final era of the cavalry, is that the old and new methods and technologies were complimentary at first. That story is often missed. We often here how the PE proved the utility of vehicles, or that aircraft demonstrated that cavalry was at an end. But, at first, this isn't true. Vehicle liberated horse cavalry from the slow wagon based supply transport, and aircraft aided its reconnaissance function.

Pat

The same missions are still performed by the same kind of men, they just ride machines instead of horses. And, interestingly, in some places there is a momentum in the opposite direction, placing "machine" Cavalry back on horses...

As MG Crosby noted, Cavalry is not the mount, it's the mission.

[Couvi]

The Piper Cub, and other similar aircraft, was utilized as artillery observation aircraft replacing tethered balloons. A big proponent of light observation aircraft was GEN Patton, who used his own personal aircraft for reconnaissance in Louisiana Maneuvers. They are made of tubing and painted canvas, and you could throw a cat through one. I once had to take one down that had been suspended in a building and we had to take care not to let our fingers poke through the canvas. The pilot’s seat was a conventional seat, but the observers ‘seat’ looked like the canvas cincha for a packsaddle. They were very light and could take–off and land from practically any road or open field.

The Piper Cubs were also launched from Landing Ship Tank (LSTs) using a system called a Brodie Rig or Brodie System, invented by USAAF CPT James H. Brodie. Legend has it that it took the testicular fortitude of a high-wire acrobat for the pilot to accomplish his first landing. The L-4 was so slow that upon release in a stiff headwind the LST would actually leave the Cub, rather than the reverse. They also ‘landed’ on this rig. Later in the war LSTs were decked over, and the Cubs were launched and landed in the conventional manner. They were used to call in and correct land-based and naval artillery fire, and to direct bombers and fighter-bombers.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n27899265

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviati ... -7665.html

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1069164 ... 6276pulFJn

The Brodie Rig could also be airdropped into the jungle, and the cable used to launch and land the L-4 erected above the canopy of the jungle eliminating the need to clear an airstrip as the troops or the front moved.

The L-4 had one ‘kill’ in WWII when a pilot and observer shot the pilot of a similar German aircraft with .45 automatics and forced him to land.

[mnhorse]

It is interesting that the subject of the L4 (also known as PIPER J3) should come up right now.
I am in the process of preparing a display of my father-in-law's belongings from his days as an Aviation Cadet and B-29 pilot during WWII.
One of the the photos I'm using, is of him during early flight training at the University of Montana at Missoula, show him getting into a J3.
The following note was on the back of the photo:

"Preparing for a mission over Missoula in the MAYTAG MESSERSCHMIDT"

Richard

[wkambic]

During WWII the AAF used a lot of "contract" civilian instructors in a variety of aircraft to provide very basic training for a lot of pilots. It's purpose appeared to be to "weed out" the obviously unsuited before a lot of money was spent on their training. If they passed this level, they moved on to primary, basic, and advanced training in ever more powerful and sophisticated aircraft.

To get some idea of the scale here is a listing of civilian contractor airfields. http://www.airforcebase.net/aaf/cfs_list.html

I'm sure that J-3s would have been used but I'd have some reservations about the "85%" number.

A WWII LST was not the most seaworthy craft ever invented. They were slow and had no keel, so they were not particularly stable. It would have taken some cojones to fly off them.

The J-3 is a fun airplane to fly and can get in and out of amazing places. I saw a film several years ago of a guy in Alaska making "water landings/takeoffs" without floats. He had oversized ballon tires on the aircraft and would touchdown on the water near his destination and "skim" to the beach or whereever, stopping in under 100' once he got to terra firma. For a takeoff he would reverse the process. If I hadn't seen it wouldn't have believed it!

The use of the JN series during the Punative Expedition was interesting as it demonstrated both the promise and the peril of air operations. It should be noted, though, that by 1916 the European beligerants had MUCH more powerful aircraft available. Indeed the U.S. did not really field a first line fighter/pursuit aircraft during the conflict. We used British and, particularly, French designs.

[selewis]

During WWII the AAF used a lot of "contract" civilian instructors in a variety of aircraft to provide very basic training for a lot of pilots. It's purpose appeared to be to "weed out" the obviously unsuited before a lot of money was spent on their training. If they passed this level, they moved on to primary, basic, and advanced training in ever more powerful and sophisticated aircraft.

To get some idea of the scale here is a listing of civilian contractor airfields. http://www.airforcebase.net/aaf/cfs_list.html

My great aunt trained quite a few pilots in their initial instruction just prior to and through WWII. I don't recall the details but I believe she was in Washington state at the time, though I didn't find any mention of any schools there in the referenced list above. A very interesting lady, she sang opera in Milan, came back to the states and had a few gigs in the film industry doing voiceover singing, gave that up and went to work as a field surveyor tromping through the woods in the Pacific Northwest before teaching flying. She was my fathers first flight instructor and as I recall she had logged over 10,000 hours by the time she retired from that and went into nursing. She's the same gal whom I mentioned recently in another thread as roofing her cabin when she was in her eighties.

Sandy

[mnhorse]

As I mentioned earlier, my father-in-law trained in the J3 at U of Montana. Later training was at the RANKIN AERONAUTICAL ACADEMY, Tulare California. I believe they were using the Stearman KAYDET biplane there.

I'm looking at his diploma dated 08 Sept 1944, and it is signed by one Tex Rankin (director) and Major Craig Bade, commanding officer 3050 Army Air forces Base Unit.

If anyone has any material on the Rankin Academy or the 3050th I would be pleased to hear about it.
Richard

[Reese Williams]

I'm pulling this from memory so I may have the unit and exact aircraft model a bit off, I'll try to find the article. The artillery spotter for the 1st division came ashore at Normandy on D+1 or D+2 with his piper cub. Shortly thereafter he had the division armorers help him rig three 2.5 inch rocket launchers (bazookas) to each wing strut. The triggers were mounted to a piece of board he held in his lap. He was able to approach German tanks from the rear, they couldn't hear him over their own engine noise. He ended the war with credit for a couple of kills plus several more for directing artillery fire onto tanks that had been dug in. He got a DFC for directing fire onto and attacking a Tiger that was holding up an advance. The article included several photos of the cub rigged with the bazookas.

[Couvi]

I'm pulling this from memory so I may have the unit and exact aircraft model a bit off, I'll try to find the article. The artillery spotter for the 1st division came ashore at Normandy on D+1 or D+2 with his piper cub. Shortly thereafter he had the division armorers help him rig three 2.5 inch rocket launchers (bazookas) to each wing strut. The triggers were mounted to a piece of board he held in his lap. He was able to approach German tanks from the rear, they couldn't hear him over their own engine noise. He ended the war with credit for a couple of kills plus several more for directing artillery fire onto tanks that had been dug in. He got a DFC for directing fire onto and attacking a Tiger that was holding up an advance. The article included several photos of the cub rigged with the bazookas.

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/databa ... m?id=12329

[Pat Holscher]

The Piper Cubs were also launched from Landing Ship Tank (LSTs) using a system called a Brodie Rig or Brodie System, invented by USAAF CPT James H. Brodie.

I have to wonder if Cpt. Brodie tested that idea.

[Pat Holscher]

I'm pulling this from memory so I may have the unit and exact aircraft model a bit off, I'll try to find the article. The artillery spotter for the 1st division came ashore at Normandy on D+1 or D+2 with his piper cub. Shortly thereafter he had the division armorers help him rig three 2.5 inch rocket launchers (bazookas) to each wing strut. The triggers were mounted to a piece of board he held in his lap. He was able to approach German tanks from the rear, they couldn't hear him over their own engine noise. He ended the war with credit for a couple of kills plus several more for directing artillery fire onto tanks that had been dug in. He got a DFC for directing fire onto and attacking a Tiger that was holding up an advance. The article included several photos of the cub rigged with the bazookas.

http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/databa ... m?id=12329

World War Two is particularly remarkable for field improvisation. There almost seems to be no particular category of weapon that some soldier didn't experiment with at some time. Some worked, some didn't, but the variety is amazing.

[Pat Holscher]

The March 11 order instructing the Army to enter Mexico:

You will promptly organize an adequate military force of troops under the command of Brigadier General John J. Pershing and will direct him to proceed promptly across the border in pursuit of the Mexican band which attacked the town of Columbus and the troops there on the morning of the 9th instant. These troops will be withdrawn to American territory as soon as the de facto government in Mexico is able to relieve them of this work period. In any event, the work of these troops will be regarded as finished as soon as Villa’s band or bands are known to be broken up. In carrying out these instructions you are authorized to employ whatever guides and interpreters are necessary and you are given general authority to employ such transportation including motor transportation, with necessary civilian personnel as may be required.

You are instructed to make all practical use of the aeroplanes at San Antonio for observation. Telegraph for whatever reinforcements or material you need. Notify this office as to force selected and expedite movement

Note the specific instruction that aircraft be used.