cavalry machine gun squadrons

stablesgt · Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:34 pm

for future reference, this is what a legit cav mg hat cord looks like.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 56110&rd=1

Pat Holscher · Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:08 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stablesgt
 for future reference, this is what a legit cav mg hat cord looks like.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 56110&rd=1
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nice looking hat too, note the stitching on the brim.

Pat

Pat Holscher · Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:58 pm

It's also interesting to note that the machinegun squadron troops had a unique hatcord, although one that clearly was cavalry. How long was the cord in use.

Pat

stablesgt · Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:59 pm

The cav MG sqdns were color bearing units, existing from 1921-1929.

Philip S · Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:24 pm

The Cavalry Machine Gun Squadron was a shortlived organization which consolidated the former Machine Gun Troops attached to the various Cavalry Regiments. They were still considered cavalry and were attached to the Cavalry Divisions. Most were reattached to their respective cavalry regiments in 1929 as the machinegun troop. Troops A and B of the 52nd Machine Squadron were PA National Guard and from Boalsburg and Bellefonte respectively.

Pat Holscher · Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:27 pm

What was the organizational structure of machinegun elements in the cavalry preceeding the Machinegun Squadron?

Pat

george seal · Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:12 pm

I'm interested in knowing how cavalry (mounted) interacted with machine guns. Gatlings you can tow, but what about water cooled models mounted on tripods? The soviets put them on 4 wheel carts that transported the gun (assembled on a miniature carriage with weels and shield) plus the crew. British troops in WWI carried lewis guns on horseback. What did the US do?

No, I don't know what Chile did. The army used maxims and latter the japaneese copy of the french WWI gun. (The one with oil radiator cooling and clips for the ammo). This machine gun was carried like a strecher with 2 long bars attached to the tripod. This is the sistem used by Japan in WWII. This makes for a large contraption to put on top of a horse.

The hat is very nice looking!

Pat Holscher · Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:18 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by george seal
 I'm interested in knowing how cavalry (mounted) interacted with machine guns. Gatlings you can tow, but what about water cooled models mounted on tripods? The soviets put them on 4 wheel carts that transported the gun (assembled on a miniature carriage with weels and shield) plus the crew. British troops in WWI carried lewis guns on horseback. What did the US do?

No, I don't know what Chile did. The army used maxims and latter the japaneese copy of the french WWI gun. (The one with oil radiator cooling and clips for the ammo). This machine gun was carried like a strecher with 2 long bars attached to the tripod. This is the sistem used by Japan in WWII. This makes for a large contraption to put on top of a horse.

The hat is very nice looking!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

George, I'm interested in the topic too, and can't really comment on the mechanics of it. Eisenhower, in Pursuit!, notes that the 10th Cavalry can be credited as one of the first units to commence a mounted charge with machinegun support.

As to how they were transported, the US Army's cavalry never used wheeled carriages, in so far as I'm aware, for machineguns. That is true machineguns. I guess a Gatling gun could perhaps be considered a type of machinegun, and they did have wheeled carriages.

However, those machineguns used by the US Army starting the Colt machingun, the potato digger, always used tripods. They were packed on pack horses for transportation. I'm very unfamiliar with this process prior to 1920, but it's my impression that what machineguns the cavalry had, such as the Benet Mercie, were packed if transported with cavalry. Perhaps somebody more familiar with them can add more detail.

After WWI cavalry machineguns were certainly packed. We have some photos of this up on other threads. The Browning 1919 machinegun, for example, was packed and the Browning Machine Rifle and Browning Automatic Rifle were both packed.

There is, however, some use of machinegun carts by the US Army, but by infantry units. This was still being done at least into the 1930s, and involved the use of mule drawn carts with the machineguns.

Pat

Pat Holscher · Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:25 pm

This thread has photos depicting the carts. Our license with the Wyoming Archives allows us to only upload them to one thread, so I can't repost the photos. Note the 10th Cavalry machineguns in the same thread. These are archived threads.
topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1921

Another archived thread on this topic.
topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1555

Pat

george seal · Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:55 am

Thanks for the archived threads. Interesting mule carts.
I used to think the potato digger the rough riders used had a weeled mount simmilar to the gatling's. I have seen some potato diggers in the Chilean Army, those used normal tripods.

Joseph Sullivan · Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:13 am

Do not recall the citation, but machine gun support was used in at least one of the later actions in the Punative Expedition. I have cavalry machine gun training circulars and so forth in my library. Will look to see if there is anything of especial interest.

Joe

Pat Holscher · Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:19 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by george seal
 Thanks for the archived threads. Interesting mule carts.
I used to think the potato digger the rough riders used had a weeled mount simmilar to the gatling's. I have seen some potato diggers in the Chilean Army, those used normal tripods.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I may be in error, but I think potato digger machinguns used by the US Army were tripod mounted. However, that may be because the photos I've seen of them are later, just before WWI. Potato diggers used by the Canadians in the Boer War, as we recently learned here, were mounted on wheeled mounts.

Pat

Pat Holscher · Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:26 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pat Holscher
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Early the next morning, the whole Tenth Cavalry resumed the attack. Drawing his regiment up in a line of skirmishers, Colonel Brown ordered all to open fire. The enemy did not budge. Finally Brown ordered Young to flank the Mexicans again, in a manner simliar to the one he had executed the day before. Young pulled back his two troops, mounted up, formed his troopers abrest, in a 'line of forager,' and started down a steep hill. On Young's signal, the troopers broke into a pistol charge around the Villistas' right flank, supported by machine-gun fire over their heads.

The combination of machine-gun fire and the shouting charge was too much for the enemy, who melted away. Young's troopers had never had to fire a shot from their pistol chambers, but the Buffalo Soldiers had introduced a new technique: overhead machine-gun fire.
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Intervention! at page 266.

Pat
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Pat

Philip S · Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:31 am

The following is from “Drill Regulations for Machine-Gun Organizations Cavalry 1910'':

The Cavalry Machine Gun Troop is composed of three sections.

The mules for each section are to be loaded as follows:

First Gun Mule.

Gun and cover(1)
Tripod (2)
Pick mattock and handle (2)
Spare barrel and case (1)
One box ammunition (3) b
One pack cover (3)

Second Mule

Two water boxes
Four ammunition boxes
Two shovels
One filing cup (2)
One tool box (3)
One ammunition box (3)
One pack cover (3)

Third Mule

Two water boxes
Six ammunition boxes
One pack cover (3)
One sledge

Fourth Mule

Six ammunition boxes
One belt filler (3)
Two water boxes
One pack cover (3)

Fifth Mule (right section)

One cleaning box (3)
One picket rope (3)
Six ammunition boxes
One pack cover (3)
One lash rope (3)
One sling rope
Two lair ropes

Fifth Mule (left section)

One cleaning box (3)
Two picket pins
Six ammunition boxes
One pack cover

Notes:
b. The pack frame, as now devised, does not provide a seat on top of frame for ammunition. The ammunition is carried on the respective hangers.
(1) near side
(2) off side
(3) top load

The gun squad for the service of a Maxim gun is composed of a corporal (or experienced private), who acts as a pointer, and three privates, Nos. 1,2,and 3. These four men are referred to as gunmen.

There duties are as follows:

Pointer:

Packs and unpacks gun
Sets sights
Aims piece
Fires piece.
Shifts trail
Assists in reducing jams.

No. 1:

Assists in packing and unpacking the tripod.
Loads piece
Assists in reducing jams

No. 2:

Assists in packing and unpacking tripod.
Serves ammunition and water

No. 3:

Assists No. 9 in unpacking 1st ammunition mule.
Serves ammunition and water.

The section also includes privates Nos. 4-8 who lead mules. In addition there are Nos. 9 and 10 who are supernumeraries (?). It is not clear if the packer is one of them.

A troop of three sections has one captain, a 1st Lieut, a 2nd Lieut, two trumpeters, and a 1st Sergt.

Pat Holscher · Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:01 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Philip S
 The gun squad for the service of a Maxim gun is composed of a corporal (or experienced private), who acts as a pointer, and three privates, Nos. 1,2,and 3. These four men are referred to as gunmen.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I didn't know that the US Army had ever used a Maxim gun, other than Vickers machineguns obtained from the UK during WWI. How prevalent were they?

Pat

Philip S · Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:55 am

Here is a link to picture of Cavalry with Maxims:

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00559.JPG

Pat Holscher · Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:10 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Philip S
 Here is a link to picture of Cavalry with Maxims:

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00559.JPG
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Philip, thanks. I'd forgotten that the Runyon photos show Maxims in use, and more than that, the significance of it didn't dawn on me.

I've thought forever that prior to WWI the US Army only used the Colt potato digger and the Benet Mercie. I was aware there were some odds and ends experimented with, and that some small use of the Lewis gun was made.

But, I was really off the mark. And, in addition, I wonder if the general story of the machinegun in US use isn't off the mark?

The general story is that the US had hardly any machineguns until WWI. But we have other photos up of Potato diggers in use by Colorado Guardsmen in the mid teens. And here we haveVickers Maxims in use. We know the Benet Mercie was used. And there's another thread up on the Lewis gun. If we keep in mind that the Army was pretty small, and wouldn't have had a need for a huge number of machineguns, it looks like there was actually quite a bit of machinegun employment going on.

The Vickers are curious. I wonder when they bought them? And I also wonder what they were chambered in?

Pat

Pat Holscher · Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:14 pm

Courtesy of George Clark. George, could you provide us the details on this?

Pat

George Clark · Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:45 pm

Thanks Pat for posting this photo for me. This is one of my favorite pieces. It is a saddle cloth that started out as as Troop G 3rd Cavalry. With the addition of a machine gun troop to the 3rd, the designation on the cover was changed to 3rd Cavalry Machine gun Troop. I've always thought of it as an interesting transition piece, marking an important change in the history of the US cavalry
George.

Tim_McShane · Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:23 am

Is that leather edging the saddle cloth? I presume the cloth itself is a wool felt?

From the discussion above, I take it this would this be a 1920s piece?

Tim

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