McClellan saddles?

msy378
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I found the "Society of the Military Horse" site while trying to identify two saddles that I have.
One has a rawhide seat and one is leather covered. The only marking on the rawhide one is a stamp
on the right side stirrup anchor,but I can't make out what it is. The leather covered one is stamped in two places "W.S.18 P.C.P.
I have attached photos of each saddle and the markings,and I have several more if needed.
(I didn't know how many I was allowed to post at one time)
I am sure the leather one is authentic ,because I found it in a barn over 20 years ago. I just got the rawhide one last week,so I don't
know if it is authentic or a reproduction.
Thank you in advance for any information you might have.
Todd
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Both are M1904 McClellans made by contractors in either 1917 or 1918. The brass stirrup loops on the saddletree are the identifier there.

The rawhide covered saddle is a reenactors rebuild item. The leather-covered one is an artillery saddle, which is identified by the dee rings riveted to the top of the cantle and pommel arches. The steel stirrups are also artillery-specific parts for this one.

The last photo shows the contractor company initials - just a little too worn to tell for sure. The three initials below that mark are the initials of the government inspector that accepted that item.
msy378
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Last Name: VanHaitsma

Thank you for the information. There is another stamp on the artillery saddle that clearly shows the W.S.18 but the P.C.P. is almost all worn off.
I saved the rawhide saddle from going in a dumpster,so ,even if they have no value,historical or otherwise, I think they look cool so I will leave them on display
here in my living room for awhile. Also, if anyone has an old photo of the artillery saddle in use I would love to see it. Thank you
Todd
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msy378 wrote:Thank you for the information. There is another stamp on the artillery saddle that clearly shows the W.S.18 but the P.C.P. is almost all worn off.
I saved the rawhide saddle from going in a dumpster,so ,even if they have no value,historical or otherwise, I think they look cool so I will leave them on display
here in my living room for awhile. Also, if anyone has an old photo of the artillery saddle in use I would love to see it. Thank you
Looked in some old notes, and that contractor is most likely Wallace & Smith Co., of Milwaukee, Wis. They were one of the many contractors for military harness/saddlery during WWI.
Couvi
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Couvi
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:30 am

The McClellan Saddle
By Captain George P. White, Commanding Troop L, Sixth Cavalry.

Journal of the United States Cavalry Association, United States Cavalry Association, Vol. XVII July 1906 to April 1907, pp. 559-560

http://books.google.com/books?dq=aparej ... jo&f=false
Fort Keogh, Montana, November 16, 1906. The Military Secretary, Department of Dakota, St. Paul, Minn.

SIR:—In reply to letter from your office dated October 31, 1906, relative to the present cavalry saddle, I have the
honor to report as follows: This saddle as used by Troop L, Sixth Cavalry, has been subjected to the following
severe and unusual tests since July 15th, last. First, ridden by fifty men on a continuous march from Crawford,
Nebraska, to Maneuver Camp, near D. A. Russell, Wyoming, and return; total distance covered, 452 miles,
half the trip, hot and dry and very dusty; returning, cold, snowy and wet. Gaits, walk and trot; saddles lay in shelter
tents or on the ground when not in use.

Second, ridden by troop; average number present at daily maneuvers or drills mounted, forty-two men; average
time used seven hours—all three gaits used; total distance covered, about 400 miles; country very rough and broken;
weather varied.

Third, in campaign against Ute Indians, seventeen days; saddle ridden by forty-three men, daily use about ten hours,
weather dry and cold; country broken, and on days when roads were not followed due to scouting, very rough; distance
traveled, 374 miles; gaits, walk and trot.

The following facts are given in connection with this severe service the present saddle has been put to this year:

The saddle in no case rode forward on the withers in any manner to cause injury to a single horse or annoyance
to his rider.

But one horse had a sore back, and that caused by the rider's pack being poorly adjusted. Not a single saddle was
rendered unserviceable to a degree requiring the action of an inspector, and but a few minor breaks of different
fastenings were noticed or reported by the riders. As the troop started in the mornings, the men were cautioned
not to cinch too tightly at the outset, but examine saddle, blanket and cinch at first halt and adjust them to the
horse.

The age and conformation of the troop horses differed to a degree giving a perfectly honest test, and the conclusion
which I believe may be honestly drawn from the above facts is, that the present saddle is the only one that could have
sustained the usage shown with such results, and that I do not believe if any saddle in Troop L had ridden forward and
thrown the rider out of place, that the record of no sore withers could have been cited.

Very respectfully,

Geo. P. White,
Captain Sixth Cavalry, Commanding Troop L.
Couvi
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:30 am

America’s Munitions 1917-1918, Benedict Crowell, GPO, Washington, page 230
The Government ordered about 1,200,000 axes to be used in trench operations, of which
661,690 were delivered. Bags of all sorts for horse feed, grain, rations, and supplies totaled in
their deliveries about 2,250,000. The Government received 809,541 saddle blankets; about
3,750,000 carriers for entrenching shovels, axes, and picks; nearly 4,450,000 covers for the
breech locks of rifles; over 1,000,000 currycombs; 76,230 lariats; 727,000 entrenching picks;
nearly 4,750,000 first-aid pouches, and over 2,000,000 pouches for small articles; 234,689
Cavalry saddles; 134,092 Field Artillery saddles; 15,287 mule saddles; 482,459 saddle bags;
nearly 1,800,000 entrenching shovels; 2,843,092 spur straps; 70,556 steel measuring tapes
each 5 feet long.
Just a few numbers from this book to pique your interest.
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

Couvi wrote:The McClellan Saddle
By Captain George P. White, Commanding Troop L, Sixth Cavalry.

Journal of the United States Cavalry Association, United States Cavalry Association, Vol. XVII July 1906 to April 1907, pp. 559-560

http://books.google.com/books?dq=aparej ... jo&f=false
Fort Keogh, Montana, November 16, 1906. The Military Secretary, Department of Dakota, St. Paul, Minn.

SIR:—In reply to letter from your office dated October 31, 1906, relative to the present cavalry saddle, I have the
honor to report as follows: This saddle as used by Troop L, Sixth Cavalry, has been subjected to the following
severe and unusual tests since July 15th, last. First, ridden by fifty men on a continuous march from Crawford,
Nebraska, to Maneuver Camp, near D. A. Russell, Wyoming, and return; total distance covered, 452 miles,
half the trip, hot and dry and very dusty; returning, cold, snowy and wet. Gaits, walk and trot; saddles lay in shelter
tents or on the ground when not in use.

Second, ridden by troop; average number present at daily maneuvers or drills mounted, forty-two men; average
time used seven hours—all three gaits used; total distance covered, about 400 miles; country very rough and broken;
weather varied.

Third, in campaign against Ute Indians, seventeen days; saddle ridden by forty-three men, daily use about ten hours,
weather dry and cold; country broken, and on days when roads were not followed due to scouting, very rough; distance
traveled, 374 miles; gaits, walk and trot.

The following facts are given in connection with this severe service the present saddle has been put to this year:

The saddle in no case rode forward on the withers in any manner to cause injury to a single horse or annoyance
to his rider.

But one horse had a sore back, and that caused by the rider's pack being poorly adjusted. Not a single saddle was
rendered unserviceable to a degree requiring the action of an inspector, and but a few minor breaks of different
fastenings were noticed or reported by the riders. As the troop started in the mornings, the men were cautioned
not to cinch too tightly at the outset, but examine saddle, blanket and cinch at first halt and adjust them to the
horse.

The age and conformation of the troop horses differed to a degree giving a perfectly honest test, and the conclusion
which I believe may be honestly drawn from the above facts is, that the present saddle is the only one that could have
sustained the usage shown with such results, and that I do not believe if any saddle in Troop L had ridden forward and
thrown the rider out of place, that the record of no sore withers could have been cited.

Very respectfully,

Geo. P. White,
Captain Sixth Cavalry, Commanding Troop L.
I wonder what expanse of time that report covered?
Couvi
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:30 am

“ . . . ridden by fifty men on a continuous march from Crawford, Nebraska, to Maneuver Camp, near D. A. Russell, Wyoming, and return; total distance covered, 452 miles.”


Just speculating I would say about three weeks at about 20 miles per day.
Pat Holscher
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Last Name: Holscher

Couvi wrote:
“ . . . ridden by fifty men on a continuous march from Crawford, Nebraska, to Maneuver Camp, near D. A. Russell, Wyoming, and return; total distance covered, 452 miles.”


Just speculating I would say about three weeks at about 20 miles per day.
Thanks, but what I meant is how many years his report encompasses, assuming it encompasses a period of years. He mentions a campaign against the Utes, for example, but when did that campaign occur?
Rick Throckmorton
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Pat,
In 1906, the Utes did break the reservation and went sightseeing in Wyoming for a short period. I don't know the numbers or descriptions of the depredations that occurred, but it did put quite a scare into the local population that were by that time, very used to no problems at all of this type. Once again, they were forced back to the reservation by the army.
Rick
Pat Holscher
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Last Name: Holscher

Rick Throckmorton wrote:Pat,
In 1906, the Utes did break the reservation and went sightseeing in Wyoming for a short period. I don't know the numbers or descriptions of the depredations that occurred, but it did put quite a scare into the local population that were by that time, very used to no problems at all of this type. Once again, they were forced back to the reservation by the army.
Rick
I had no idea.

Here's the story:

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapte ... n1906.html

It seems they departed the reservation in Utah and went all the way to Pine Ridge, one heck of a ride. The Army must have just picked up shadowing them at some point. It's a really interesting example of how the Old West lived on, in some regions, well into the 20th Century. At the same time, the Utes had to be dreaming that this would all work out, and maybe they didn't expect it to.

Anyhow, really fascinating story, and also an interesting example of how the Army was looking at the McClellan's performance in this time frame. I wonder if any M1904s were involved in that "campaign"?
Pat Holscher
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Last Name: Holscher

Couvi wrote:America’s Munitions 1917-1918, Benedict Crowell, GPO, Washington, page 230
The Government ordered about 1,200,000 axes to be used in trench operations, of which
661,690 were delivered. Bags of all sorts for horse feed, grain, rations, and supplies totaled in
their deliveries about 2,250,000. The Government received 809,541 saddle blankets; about
3,750,000 carriers for entrenching shovels, axes, and picks; nearly 4,450,000 covers for the
breech locks of rifles; over 1,000,000 currycombs; 76,230 lariats; 727,000 entrenching picks;
nearly 4,750,000 first-aid pouches, and over 2,000,000 pouches for small articles; 234,689
Cavalry saddles; 134,092 Field Artillery saddles; 15,287 mule saddles; 482,459 saddle bags;
nearly 1,800,000 entrenching shovels; 2,843,092 spur straps; 70,556 steel measuring tapes
each 5 feet long.
Just a few numbers from this book to pique your interest.
234,689 cavalry saddles.

Wow.

What would the five foot long measuring tapes have been for?
Couvi
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Pat Holscher wrote:
Couvi wrote:America’s Munitions 1917-1918, Benedict Crowell, GPO, Washington, page 230
The Government ordered about 1,200,000 axes to be used in trench operations, of which
661,690 were delivered. Bags of all sorts for horse feed, grain, rations, and supplies totaled in
their deliveries about 2,250,000. The Government received 809,541 saddle blankets; about
3,750,000 carriers for entrenching shovels, axes, and picks; nearly 4,450,000 covers for the
breech locks of rifles; over 1,000,000 currycombs; 76,230 lariats; 727,000 entrenching picks;
nearly 4,750,000 first-aid pouches, and over 2,000,000 pouches for small articles; 234,689
Cavalry saddles; 134,092 Field Artillery saddles; 15,287 mule saddles; 482,459 saddle bags;
nearly 1,800,000 entrenching shovels; 2,843,092 spur straps; 70,556 steel measuring tapes
each 5 feet long.
Just a few numbers from this book to pique your interest.
234,689 cavalry saddles.

Wow.

What would the five foot long measuring tapes have been for?
And, almost half as many Artillery saddles. Note the number of mules saddles, also. I wonder if these were the Model 1913 McClellans or what later became the Model 1917 full-rigged and skeleton-rigged packers saddles. Did we ever resolve when the packer's saddle actually entered service. I believe they were heavily in use by the beginning of WWI, but didn't receive a model number until 1917.

I have no idea what the 5-foot tapes were for, I wondered that myself. A five-foot tape doesn't seem to have a great deal of utility. I carry a ten-foot on a daily basis and it usually isn't long enough. In light of all the air-cooled, hand-operated, non-mechanical excavation equipment mentioned, could they have been for measuring trenches for uniformity? :?
Pat Holscher
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Couvi wrote:Did we ever resolve when the packer's saddle actually entered service. I believe they were heavily in use by the beginning of WWI, but didn't receive a model number until 1917.
Todd has a photo up here on the site of a really early one, 1905 is the date that sticks in mind, that's no different from the 1917 designated saddle. I'll have to look back and see if I can find it, but the contract for the acquisition of the first ones must have been right around that time. I think we might have a thread discussing that.

I wonder how many of those were built in the big WWI leather goods orderings?
Couvi
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Somewhat related to the topic:
The Armies of Industry II, Our Nation’s Manufacture of Arms 1917-1918, by Benedict Crowell and Robert Forrest Wilson, 1921, Yale University Press, pp. 635-36
The procurement of leather for the Army, both in raw material and the finished products of leather, was one of the most important undertakings, the principal war uses for leather being in shoes for the soldiers and in harness for the horses and mules. When the Government entered the leather market it found a high level of prices, due to the large quantities of leather and leather equipment which America had been exporting to the European nations at war. The tanners were called together, and they came to an agreement with the Government as to the prices of all grades of equipment which the Army expected to buy. The packers next agreed on a maximum price for hides suitable for army leathers. The Government took an option on 750,000 hides then in the hands of the packers. By consulting with the industry at all times, the government officers were able to stabilize prices of leather. The price of harness leather, which was originally fixed at 66 cents a pound, was advanced only 4 cents during the eighteen months of the war period, and russet leather never advanced more than 4 cents a pound above the $1.03 fixed at the beginning of the war.

As the stocks of leather on hand diminished it became necessary to stimulate its production, and there was formed a hide and leather control board, with a representative on it from each branch of the trade, one for harness, one for sole leather, one for upper leather, and one for the sheepskin trade. This board also inspected leather at all the tanneries and the finished leather in the various factories, a course which resulted in great improvement in the quality of leather, particularly that used in shoemaking.

At the outset the Quartermaster Corps, the Ordnance Department, the Signal Corps, the Engineering Department, the Medical Department, the Navy, and the Marine Corps were all buying leather or leather equipment, and the Y. M. C. A. and the Red Cross were also in the market for large amounts of leather materials. These activities, except those of the Navy and Marine Corps, were all eventually brought under the administration of the Clothing and Equipage Division, thus virtually eliminating competition in the leather market.

It is safe to say that at the signing of the armistice there was enough leather equipment, either in the United States and France or in process of manufacture here, to meet the needs of 5,000,000 men. Leather equipment was available at all times. The principal military articles of leather were harnesses, shoes, jerkins, gloves, and mittens.

In all, $75,000,000 was spent for harness and leather equipment. The procurement of saddles was a hard problem in itself, for there were only three or four makers of saddletrees in the United States, and only one of these could get the ash or basswood required. The division induced various furniture factories to install the special lathes required for turning saddletrees, and in this way built up eight factories, which gave us sufficient capacity. Belting manufacturers and manufacturers of shoes were educated in the art of producing the leather for the saddles. The army harness is of russet leather, and russet leather harnesses are a product for which there is no commercial demand. The result is that the surpluses of army harness could not be disposed of to advantage after the armistice.

The former American army shoe built on the Munson last and known as the russet marching shoe was machine sewed, had an upper of calfskin with the rough side turned in, and was lined with duck. This shoe proved to be short-lived when subjected to the severe service in France. At the beginning of the war a new shoe was designed for trench service. This was a much heavier shoe, with the calfskin of the upper turned rough side out. There was no lining in the shoe. It had two heavy soles, the outer one hobnailed. Yet this shoe, too, proved to be unsatisfactory. The uppers wore fairly well, but the soles could not stand the constant submerging in mud and water.

The demands of trench service eventually led to the design of what was called the Pershing shoe. This was a shoe with three heavy soles, stitched, screwed, and nailed together. It had steel reinforcements on toe and heel. The outer sole was studded with hobnails. The original requisitions from France for this shoe called for leather tanned with bark. As bark tanning is almost obsolete in the United States to-day, it was necessary to go into the tanneries and build up what was virtually a new industry. It should be mentioned that the design for the Pershing shoe was completed in thirty days. The culmination of the shoe development was the model known as the Victory shoe. This model corrected certain defects in the Pershing shoe. The Pershing shoe was prone to rip along the back stays, and the upper did not fit snugly. In the Victory shoe the entire back of the upper was one piece.
http://books.google.com/books?id=eXvRAA ... text#c_top
Couvi
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Manual of Pack Transportation, H.W. Daly, 1910, GPO, Washington, pp. 164.
Packers' Saddles.

(9) Stock saddle. – To be made of No. 1276 Visalia or Pueblo tree, with Omaha steel fork, short neck; beef-hide cover.

Saddle to be "full-rigged;" hair girths, 24 strands, two-bar girths, with steel stirrups, leather covered; seat of stirrup, 5 inches; seat of saddle, from 15 1/2 to 16 inches.
NOTE: Only the full-rigged is mentioned.
Bridles.

(10) Bridles. – Regulation size and make and provided with bits short in branch and of strong make.
Manual of Pack Transportation, H.W. Daly, 1917, GPO, Washington, shows the Packer’s Saddle on pp. 179-181, both skeleton-rigged and full-rigged.

I could find nothing earlier than that, but there has to have been some development and field testing prior to 1910.
Todd
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A curiously positive take on the leather and other commodities situation - where 'foxes in the henhouse' are called 'representatives of the trade'... Though the situation in the leather area was worse than some, as the head of leather purchasing during the war [George B. Goetz] had been vp/secty of a major leathergoods house prior to war, and held a reserve commission. Given a commission as colonel, he was able to sling his authority and influence in two realms at the same time.

Here's an interesting starting point for reading... http://books.google.com/books?id=LIFAAA ... tz&f=false

I'm fascinated as to how the Crowell and Wilson book might have come about to be published in 1921, as the congressional committee(s) were meeting and investigating war purchases.

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm ... artment%22

- addendum: I searched for Benedict Crowell in this war expenditures book, and find he was asst. secty of war at the time, and involved in expenditures. Perhaps a bit of self-serving publishing in the light of what he knew was steamrolling in his direction? Google books is pretty awesome stuff - gives a person a chance to peek into obscure resources.
Couvi
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Todd wrote:A curiously positive take on the leather and other commodities situation - where 'foxes in the henhouse' are called 'representatives of the trade'... Though the situation in the leather area was worse than some, as the head of leather purchasing during the war [George B. Goetz] had been vp/secty of a major leathergoods house prior to war, and held a reserve commission. Given a commission as colonel, he was able to sling his authority and influence in two realms at the same time.

Here's an interesting starting point for reading... http://books.google.com/books?id=LIFAAA ... tz&f=false

I'm fascinated as to how the Crowell and Wilson book might have come about to be published in 1921, as the congressional committee(s) were meeting and investigating war purchases.

https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm ... artment%22

- addendum: I searched for Benedict Crowell in this war expenditures book, and find he was asst. secty of war at the time, and involved in expenditures. Perhaps a bit of self-serving publishing in the light of what he knew was steamrolling in his direction? Google books is pretty awesome stuff - gives a person a chance to peek into obscure resources.
That would be Benedict Crowell, Brigadier General, U.S. Army Reserve (Retired)
Pat Holscher
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Couvi wrote:Manual of Pack Transportation, H.W. Daly, 1910, GPO, Washington, pp. 164.
Packers' Saddles.

(9) Stock saddle. – To be made of No. 1276 Visalia or Pueblo tree, with Omaha steel fork, short neck; beef-hide cover.

Saddle to be "full-rigged;" hair girths, 24 strands, two-bar girths, with steel stirrups, leather covered; seat of stirrup, 5 inches; seat of saddle, from 15 1/2 to 16 inches.
NOTE: Only the full-rigged is mentioned.
Bridles.

(10) Bridles. – Regulation size and make and provided with bits short in branch and of strong make.
Manual of Pack Transportation, H.W. Daly, 1917, GPO, Washington, shows the Packer’s Saddle on pp. 179-181, both skeleton-rigged and full-rigged.

I could find nothing earlier than that, but there has to have been some development and field testing prior to 1910.
Here's the item I was thinking of, I've bumped up the thread it was from:
Todd wrote:
Originally posted by Jesse
Thanks Gentlemen,
In following up on these and other threads, I see several photos posted. I'll study these for information. Is KC Saddelry still in business? I'd like to see if I can dig up the history of this saddle. Do you have the title of Mr. Dorseys' book? Are 1904 saddlebags the "norm"? Are the cinchas made commercially and/or is easy to acquire them? I've still got a lot of questions and appreciate ya'lls time to answer an old codger.
Jess
Lemme give this a try: KC Saddlery is no longer in business, though I cannot tell you when they went out or were bought out. They were located in the area known as the West Bottoms, not too far from the old KC stockyards (which is across from the old location of the Charles Shipley saddlery building - long gone, but the sign remains, painted on the bricks). Handy location, as the QM Dept. had an office and receiving facility not too far away in downtown KC.

1904 bags would be the norm for the cantle, though apparently some plain oblong shaped pommel bags were made for these.

Cinchas aren't any huge deal, as they were normal western style (of that time) - mohair with 3" rings and buckle tongues, with a leather safe held with rosette and lace. Harder thing to find until recently were replacement stirrups - these were the usual style visalia (I think) but with brass reinforce/bindings. I believe the later WWII issues were typical galvenized steel like modern ones.

I don't recall at the moment who sent these, but may have been Philip or Jim - this pic shows packer saddle made by R.T. Frazier in 1909 - note, cinches are different than later models:

http://www.militaryhorse.org/studies/pa ... ig1909.jpg

Image

Todd H.
Here's that image in a larger size:

Image

R. T. Frazier was a Colorado saddle maker. This 1909 saddle is pretty clearly what became the M1917, so they must have been in use at least that early. The saddle itself was no doubt simply one of Frazier's regular catalog stock saddles. Standardization as an Army pattern had the sort of interesting effect of keeping this deep seat high pommel, high cantle, old style stock saddle in Army use after the type was fading from the stock standard in civilian use.
Locked