Armeesattel 25

[Pat Holscher]

I was considering buying an armeesattel 25, and in reading about the saddle found that it came in 5 sizes with number 5 being the widest. The natural assumption is that number 1 is the narrowest and each higher number is a bit wider.

However I found a review of the saddle on the German Ebay. Here is a passage from it, followed by a translation from Google translate:

Laut dem Buch "Feldartillerie" von 1904 gibt es folgende Größen :
Nr. 1 für schmalgerippte Pferde mit geradem Rücken
Nr. 2 für schmalgerippte Pferde mit gebogenem Rücken
Nr. 3 für breitgerippte Pferde mit geradem Rücken
Nr. 4 für breitgerippte Pferde mit gebogenem Rücken
Nr. 5 für senkrückige Pferde

According to the book "Field Artillery" from 1904, there are the following sizes:
No. 1 for schmalgerippte horses with a straight back
No. 2 for schmalgerippte horse with curved spine
No. 3 for breitgerippte horses with a straight back
No. 4 for breitgerippte horse with curved spine
No. 5 for horses senkrückige

What I infer from this is that Numbers 1 and 2 are the same width of tree and that numbers 3 and 4 are the same width of tree, the difference between the pairs is the front to back curvature of the tree. In this case both 3 and 4 would be medium tree saddles and only 5 would be a wide tree.

I cannot myself translate the untranslated words so I am not certain. Could someone who is familiar with these saddles clear this up? Also if someone knows, what is the angle between the points of the tree for the 4 and 5? What I mean is that the angle between the points of the tree on medium tree english saddles is about 90 degree (45 deg to the center line). My horses would require a considerably wider saddle.

By the way the said review states that there was also a size 6 produced in some years that was even wider. Is that true and are any ever seen?

Derek

That's odd. That sizing doesn't seem to comport with the other German material.

Can anyone resolve this?

[Reiter]

To Armeesattel 25: thats no problem. A good saddler is possible to change the saddle pads for every horse. Number 1 and 2 are for lighter and smaller horses like thoroughbred, 3 and 4 for Warmblood and 5 for heavy horses. But number 1 and 3 are for horses with high "Widerrist".
Mr. Karl Georg Schumacher, old German cavalryman, had examined some saddles from middle of Twenties to beginning of Forties and come to the result, that the early saddles were narrower than later saddles. Saddles 2,3,4 of the Forties are nearly without difference.
For everyone who is interested in the Armeesattel 25 and the Armeesattel-models before I can recommend the book "Armeesattel 25" from Karl Georg Schumacher, with very much fotos of different German Armeesaddles and old German documents.

I have a pair (or nearly so) of those stirrup irons. Oddly they came with a 1912 hinged UP saddle. One is stamped Mole & Co, a British maker, and the other Linden & Funke. One must be a pre WW1 export from UK.

David, its very interesting that Uk and Germany produced the same models!

Horrido!

Nicole

[John M Φ]

Yes, interesting David. Linden and Funke presumably a German firm?. And Mole had a German contract?.I am sure this pattern was never on issue to the British Army/.
John.M.

[JohnVanGelder]

I am new to this forum, and so this may be a question someone has already answered. I have a very nice M25, I use it regularly, it appears that it must have been stored someplace because the only signs of age are some small amount of corrosion on the iron/steel fittings.

It is a number (2) saddle, and seems to fit my bay paint who has quite a bit of thoroughbred, he is nearly 17h. Enough about my horse, I cannot find any other markings on the saddle except the (2) stamped in the usual place at the rear of the cantle. I had hoped to get some idea of the age of the saddle. It appears that it may have been used on some sort of draft animal, because both of the buckles at the rear of the saddle are bent and one was broken. There possibly are other explanations. I bought the saddle from a lady in Quebec that sold it for a friend that used to have a riding school. The person that I got it from told me that as far as she knew no ever rode the saddle, they just had it on display at the school.

Any one have any ideas about how to date this saddle. Also does anyone know how long these saddles were in production after the war? And then a coupling and some pommel bags would be nice......

Thanks
John

[Reiter]

Hello John,

are you sure that it is an German Armeesattel 25?
If it has no stamp of the "Waffenamt" than it is not really possible to date the saddle. You can only estimate by comparing with other Armeesattel 25 Nr.2 with known date.
If it was really used by "draft animal" in the "Bespannte Artillerie", than you should find a strap on the down-side of the saddle.
The production of the Armeesattel 25 stopped in Germany with end of WWII and the end of German cavalry.
Maybe similar models were produced some years after 1945 in the German neighbour nations, like Czechoslovakia. I have put a foto of such saddle here in this forum.

Horrido!

Nicole

[Pat Holscher]

I am new to this forum, and so this may be a question someone has already answered. I have a very nice M25, I use it regularly, it appears that it must have been stored someplace because the only signs of age are some small amount of corrosion on the iron/steel fittings.

It is a number (2) saddle, and seems to fit my bay paint who has quite a bit of thoroughbred, he is nearly 17h. Enough about my horse, I cannot find any other markings on the saddle except the (2) stamped in the usual place at the rear of the cantle. I had hoped to get some idea of the age of the saddle. It appears that it may have been used on some sort of draft animal, because both of the buckles at the rear of the saddle are bent and one was broken. There possibly are other explanations. I bought the saddle from a lady in Quebec that sold it for a friend that used to have a riding school. The person that I got it from told me that as far as she knew no ever rode the saddle, they just had it on display at the school.

Any one have any ideas about how to date this saddle. Also does anyone know how long these saddles were in production after the war? And then a coupling and some pommel bags would be nice......

Thanks
John

Do you have a photo of it that you could post?

[Pat Holscher]

The production of the Armeesattel 25 stopped in Germany with end of WWII and the end of German cavalry.

Was there some post war, fairly recent, manufacture of sporting saddles or recreational saddles based on this pattern? It seems we had a website showed such a saddle, but I may be recalling it incorrectly, and perhaps the saddle maker was only rebuilding Armeesattel 25s.

[JohnVanGelder]

There is no doubt that what I have is an M25. I have a copy of "Horses of the German Army in WWll". I have pretty well dissasembled the saddle and it has all of the "D" rings, staples and other hardware in the same places as the saddles pictured in that book.

I presently do not have a picture, but can take some pictures in a day or two. One of my friends who is an avid WWll collector has an M25 with all of the acceptance marks, the saddles are identical, right down to the lacing that secures the billet straps.

All of the M25s I have seen are of a more reddish color mine is a very dark brown. Also the saddle padding is black and not the beige or tan that I have seen on other M25 saddles.

I will take some pictures and perhaps that will help with the mystery..

Thanks
John

[JohnVanGelder]

Nicole

In your post you mentioned that if the saddle had been used on a draft animal there would be a strap on the down side of the saddle, I am not sure where the "down side" is...

john

[Pat Holscher]

There is no doubt that what I have is an M25. I have a copy of "Horses of the German Army in WWll". I have pretty well dissasembled the saddle and it has all of the "D" rings, staples and other hardware in the same places as the saddles pictured in that book.

I presently do not have a picture, but can take some pictures in a day or two. One of my friends who is an avid WWll collector has an M25 with all of the acceptance marks, the saddles are identical, right down to the lacing that secures the billet straps.

All of the M25s I have seen are of a more reddish color mine is a very dark brown. Also the saddle padding is black and not the beige or tan that I have seen on other M25 saddles.

I will take some pictures and perhaps that will help with the mystery..

Thanks
John

The German military was fanatic about stamping things with marks, and generally there's all sorts of acceptance and manufacturer marks stamped on nearly item of German equipment. I'm not personally familiar with German tack, but I'd guess off hand that this is generally the case with the tack as well. Or at least there should be some marks.

In trying to look it up, the one question I'd have is whether very early Armeesattel 25s had coded marks. According to one list I've seen, the first dated marks showed up in 1927. The practice of assigning a code to identify the manufacturer of German equipment (a practice so extensive that not all of the codes are now decoded), however, did not come into existence until after the Nazis came in to power. Anyhow, what I wonder, but don't know, is whether saddles made from 1925 to 1934 or so had codes stamped on them or not. They still should have had some sort of acceptance mark stamped on them, however.

That's no help I realize. We'll look forward to seeing the photos. It's really curious to hear of a saddle of this type without the noted marks. Following up on what Nicole has noted, I almost wonder if what you have is a saddle closely related to the Armeesattel 25, but from another nation. Some other nations used patterns that were extremely close to the Armeesattel 25, and would be hard to distinguish them from. Switzerland, for example, used a saddle that was very close to that pattern, and they weren't the only one. Poland used a similar pattern as well, I think, as did others.

[ronshoe]

On page 67 of Karl Georg Schumacher's book on the Armeesattel 25, he features a late war WW2 Armeesattel 25 with no maker marks on the back of the saddle seat. The tree is marked with a size number but there is no size number stamped on the back of the leather seat either. I actually have an Armeesattel 25 that is identical to the one featured in the Schumacher book and it does not have any marker's mark stamped in it either. Other than the lack of stamps, it is identical to other maker marked versions I have seen.

[Reiter]

In your post you mentioned that if the saddle had been used on a draft animal there would be a strap on the down side of the saddle, I am not sure where the "down side" is...

Hello John,

if it really was a saddle for drafthorse, a strap should be between saddle pads, this piece was connected with the "Sielengeschirr 25".

There is no doubt that what I have is an M25. I have a copy of "Horses of the German Army in WWll".

Thats no problem. I have only asked if you sure that is not a saddle of other nations, that looks like the Armeesattel 25.
The absence of marking should not be seen as a proof, that it should be no German saddle! I have a German Packtasche 34 at home which has no stamp too.

A possiblity is, John, when you say your saddle and the quality looks very nice, that it is from the last production before end of war - in the last two years was the production in Germany in the last courses and some material, maschines or tool was missing. It could be a reason why saddle is not stamped.
But thats only a possibility!

Horrido!

Nicole

[Pat Holscher]

On page 67 of Karl Georg Schumacher's book on the Armeesattel 25, he features a late war WW2 Armeesattel 25 with no maker marks on the back of the saddle seat. The tree is marked with a size number but there is no size number stamped on the back of the leather seat either. I actually have an Armeesattel 25 that is identical to the one featured in the Schumacher book and it does not have any marker's mark stamped in it either. Other than the lack of stamps, it is identical to other maker marked versions I have seen.

That's very interesting.

I suppose another possibility is that saddles, like other German materials, became the source of some skipped steps late in the war. The best example might be late war G98 actions, which have some significant departures from the standard. Anyhow, perhaps late in the war, getting the Waffenamts was omitted in haste.

Quality wise, are there any differences between late war saddles and the earlier ones?

[JohnVanGelder]

I took several pictures of my saddle and in so doing had just the right light and low and behold there was an eagle stamped in the leather of the seat just above the #2. There is also a mark on the other side of the cutout just above the other #2 but I cannot make it out... When I had the seat off I found in ink, the numbers 58 written on the rawhide strip that is laced to the tree to support the center of the seat.

Some of these saddles had a year stamp on the sweat flaps, mine does not or like the acceptance stamp it was so light that I just cannot see it.

Thanks one and all .. probably no point in posting the pictures.

john

These are truly fine saddles, too bad that no one is still making them, I did find a saddler in Argentina that is making something quite close.

[Reiter]

These are truly fine saddles, too bad that no one is still making them, I did find a saddler in Argentina that is making something quite close.

Yes, this saddles are very good! Hm, the German Saddlery Passier&Sohn had made for a civil reproduction some saddles of this type. I dont know what was the reason but today they never produce them.

Horrido!

Nicole

[Pat Holscher]

I took several pictures of my saddle and in so doing had just the right light and low and behold there was an eagle stamped in the leather of the seat just above the #2. There is also a mark on the other side of the cutout just above the other #2 but I cannot make it out... When I had the seat off I found in ink, the numbers 58 written on the rawhide strip that is laced to the tree to support the center of the seat.

Some of these saddles had a year stamp on the sweat flaps, mine does not or like the acceptance stamp it was so light that I just cannot see it.

Thanks one and all .. probably no point in posting the pictures.

john

These are truly fine saddles, too bad that no one is still making them, I did find a saddler in Argentina that is making something quite close.

John, if it's not too much trouble, why not go ahead and post the photos anyway? We can always use another example.

[JohnVanGelder]

Here are some of my pictures. And perhaps a bit more practice uploading pictures wwould be good as well...

John

[Reiter]

The leather looks very well. Its a usual Armeesattel 25, I dont see any signs for a saddle for draft-horses or for using in the "Nachrichtentruppe".
Are the stirrups original? I cant see them on the fotos. Maybe they marked too!

Horrido!

Nicole

[JohnVanGelder]

My stirrups and leathers are modern manufacture..

[Piper Girl]

Reiter,

Just wondering the picture of the bridle you posted looked very new... Is it? If so where did you find it? I am looking for one myself (either original or Repro) and was wondering if you might have some inside information.