re the 37mm antitank gun in cav units:
1. a fairly recent photo on the forum (early 40's wyoming cav ng regt?) showed 2 or 3 37mm antitank guns in the forefront, albeit in a mass of motorized vehicles.
2. the "illustrated history of the u.s. cavalry" (not very good, i thought), says that late '30s, early 40's mg squadrons included 3 each 37mm antitank guns in their to&e. the army did love them, before they actually tried to use them. infantry (and marine rifle) regts had organic antitank companies based on them.
3. that april '41 life magazine article on the 1st cav div, focusing on the 8th cav (with a mg squadron cpl on the front) has a shot of two little caissons bouncing over ft. bliss at a gallop, drawn by 6 ups. no guns in the shot, but the limbers and caissons (with pneumatic tires) are about an appropriate size. because so much of the article was on the mg unit (great shot of a galloping trooper ponying another hoss with a phillips packsaddle carrying an m2 (?)), i suspect the caissons may have been for the 37's. i will try to get a phone call in to my old trooper buddy-- he wasn't in the mg unit but he seemed to know a lot about it.
4. horse drawn 37's would be right in keeping with all the other hard to believe things that were done to "modernize" the cavalry, machine guns, gas masks, patton-design sabres, etc.
in truth, there is even still a place for mounted scouts and pack animals, but a cavalry anti-tank unit!!! even better than "military intelligence!"
cavalry machine gun squadrons
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BlueTrain
I don't have this in front of me but I was studying the tables of organization of cavlary units last night trying to figure out if they used 75-mm howitizers. Since the manuals were about cavalry, the artillery was barely mentioned, so I don't know. Moreover, I don't think I saw a table or chart for an entire cavalry division, of which there were at most two, at least in 1940 (when most of the tables were authorized). One is still in business today, as far as I know.
Cavalry units did, however, have a lot of firepower, if not exactly heavy weapons. The cavalry division itself even had some light tanks, although the horse/mechanized regiment did not. They only had scout cars. Apparently a lot of experimentation was going on at the time and not only in cavalry units. We sometimes refer to the inter-war period as transisition but I believe in fact most of the transition takes place during the war. Any war, for that matter.
The anti-tank element of the division was only one troop of 37-mm guns and they were towed by scout cars and without caissons or trailers. Whatever rolls along, the army has not used caissons since the artillery was mechanized. The 155-mm gun used a limber but that isn't the same. I don't even think the 8-in howitizer used a limber.
Easily the most radical innovation for the cavalry was provision of large horse trailers, called "portees," so that road movements would be as rapid as a mechanized unit while saving the horses at the same time. Otherwise, fifty miles a day for a horse unit would be pretty good. I don't have any information about how many there were of the horse/mechanized regiments or of the overall cavalry strength of the US Army in 1940.
Cavalry units did, however, have a lot of firepower, if not exactly heavy weapons. The cavalry division itself even had some light tanks, although the horse/mechanized regiment did not. They only had scout cars. Apparently a lot of experimentation was going on at the time and not only in cavalry units. We sometimes refer to the inter-war period as transisition but I believe in fact most of the transition takes place during the war. Any war, for that matter.
The anti-tank element of the division was only one troop of 37-mm guns and they were towed by scout cars and without caissons or trailers. Whatever rolls along, the army has not used caissons since the artillery was mechanized. The 155-mm gun used a limber but that isn't the same. I don't even think the 8-in howitizer used a limber.
Easily the most radical innovation for the cavalry was provision of large horse trailers, called "portees," so that road movements would be as rapid as a mechanized unit while saving the horses at the same time. Otherwise, fifty miles a day for a horse unit would be pretty good. I don't have any information about how many there were of the horse/mechanized regiments or of the overall cavalry strength of the US Army in 1940.
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Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BlueTrain</i>
<br />I don't have this in front of me but I was studying the tables of organization of cavlary units last night trying to figure out if they used 75-mm howitizers. Since the manuals were about cavalry, the artillery was barely
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
There are various photos of horse artillery units up in some older threads that will give you a pretty good example of what was used in them, as they were attached to cavalry elements, before and after WWI.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The cavalry division itself even had some light tanks, although the horse/mechanized regiment did not. They only had scout cars. Apparently a lot of experimentation was going on at the time and not only in cavalry units. We sometimes refer to the inter-war period as transisition but I believe in fact most of the transition takes place during the war. Any war, for that matter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
There's also some older threads on this. It's important here to keep cavalry regiments, horse-mechanized cavalry regiments, mechanized cavalry regiments, and cavalry divisions seperated out. There were quite a few mechanized cavalry regiments by the war's end, some of which had started off as horse mechanized. The 115th, for example, was a federalized horse mechanized Wyoming Cavalry regiment, which was nearly completely cadred out, and ended up a mechanized cavalry regiment by the end of the war.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Easily the most radical innovation for the cavalry was provision of large horse trailers, called "portees," so that road movements would be as rapid as a mechanized unit while saving the horses at the same time. Otherwise, fifty miles a day for a horse unit would be pretty good. I don't have any information about how many there were of the horse/mechanized regiments or of the overall cavalry strength of the US Army in 1940.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Some nice older threads are up on that also.
We have some organization tables contributed by Couvi which are up, and a link in an older thread to tables from WWII.
Pat
<br />I don't have this in front of me but I was studying the tables of organization of cavlary units last night trying to figure out if they used 75-mm howitizers. Since the manuals were about cavalry, the artillery was barely
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
There are various photos of horse artillery units up in some older threads that will give you a pretty good example of what was used in them, as they were attached to cavalry elements, before and after WWI.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The cavalry division itself even had some light tanks, although the horse/mechanized regiment did not. They only had scout cars. Apparently a lot of experimentation was going on at the time and not only in cavalry units. We sometimes refer to the inter-war period as transisition but I believe in fact most of the transition takes place during the war. Any war, for that matter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
There's also some older threads on this. It's important here to keep cavalry regiments, horse-mechanized cavalry regiments, mechanized cavalry regiments, and cavalry divisions seperated out. There were quite a few mechanized cavalry regiments by the war's end, some of which had started off as horse mechanized. The 115th, for example, was a federalized horse mechanized Wyoming Cavalry regiment, which was nearly completely cadred out, and ended up a mechanized cavalry regiment by the end of the war.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Easily the most radical innovation for the cavalry was provision of large horse trailers, called "portees," so that road movements would be as rapid as a mechanized unit while saving the horses at the same time. Otherwise, fifty miles a day for a horse unit would be pretty good. I don't have any information about how many there were of the horse/mechanized regiments or of the overall cavalry strength of the US Army in 1940.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Some nice older threads are up on that also.
We have some organization tables contributed by Couvi which are up, and a link in an older thread to tables from WWII.
Pat
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BlueTrain</i>
<br /> The 155-mm gun used a limber but that isn't the same. I don't even think the 8-in howitizer used a limber. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The 155mm Gun M2 and the 8” Howitzer M1 used the same carriage. The limber was the Heavy Artillery Limber. I think it was an M3. At some point they made an arrangement where the piece would attach directly to the tractor. This made it a great deal easier to back up and bring into firing position.
Couvi
<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
<br /> The 155-mm gun used a limber but that isn't the same. I don't even think the 8-in howitizer used a limber. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The 155mm Gun M2 and the 8” Howitzer M1 used the same carriage. The limber was the Heavy Artillery Limber. I think it was an M3. At some point they made an arrangement where the piece would attach directly to the tractor. This made it a great deal easier to back up and bring into firing position.
Couvi
<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
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BlueTrain
My mistake: I meant the 155-mm howitizer. I knew the 8-in howitizer and the 155-mm gun used the same carriage. There was also a 4.5-in gun that used the same carriage as the 155-mm howitizer but that was a rare gun. I'm not real sure about this but I think the 3-in anti-tank gun that came along late in the war may have used the same carriage as the 105-mm howitizer, which by the way, I trained on at Ft. Sill in 1965. I even got to shoot at a moving target once.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BlueTrain</i>
<br />My mistake: I meant the 155-mm howitizer. I knew the 8-in howitizer and the 155-mm gun used the same carriage. There was also a 4.5-in gun that used the same carriage as the 155-mm howitizer but that was a rare gun. I'm not real sure about this but I think the 3-in anti-tank gun that came along late in the war may have used the same carriage as the 105-mm howitizer, which by the way, I trained on at Ft. Sill in 1965. I even got to shoot at a moving target once.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Correct on all accounts! The 4.5” Gun, used the same carriage as the 155mm Howitzer, but its performance was not what was expected. The range was good, but the bursting charge of the projectile was a bit light. It was only a fuzz larger than the 105mm, which is 4.2". Only three battalions of these guns saw service in WWII, one being the Washington Artillery from New Orleans. After the war they were quickly relegated to training weapons or converted to 155mm Howitzers. The line of guns south of the Geronimo Road School and north of the NCO Club, that were used to train officers to lay batteries, are, to the best of my knowledge, the last of the 4.5” Guns.
The 3” Anti-Tank Gun, M5, is a 3” Anti-Aircraft gun tube on an M2 (105mm Howitzer) carriage with a new slanted shield. This gun was also used on the M10 Tank Destroyer, I believe.
Couvi
<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
<br />My mistake: I meant the 155-mm howitizer. I knew the 8-in howitizer and the 155-mm gun used the same carriage. There was also a 4.5-in gun that used the same carriage as the 155-mm howitizer but that was a rare gun. I'm not real sure about this but I think the 3-in anti-tank gun that came along late in the war may have used the same carriage as the 105-mm howitizer, which by the way, I trained on at Ft. Sill in 1965. I even got to shoot at a moving target once.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Correct on all accounts! The 4.5” Gun, used the same carriage as the 155mm Howitzer, but its performance was not what was expected. The range was good, but the bursting charge of the projectile was a bit light. It was only a fuzz larger than the 105mm, which is 4.2". Only three battalions of these guns saw service in WWII, one being the Washington Artillery from New Orleans. After the war they were quickly relegated to training weapons or converted to 155mm Howitzers. The line of guns south of the Geronimo Road School and north of the NCO Club, that were used to train officers to lay batteries, are, to the best of my knowledge, the last of the 4.5” Guns.
The 3” Anti-Tank Gun, M5, is a 3” Anti-Aircraft gun tube on an M2 (105mm Howitzer) carriage with a new slanted shield. This gun was also used on the M10 Tank Destroyer, I believe.
Couvi
<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
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throwback
Life Magizine, April 21, 1941 (10 cents).
as i actually dug up my xeroxes, i see the caption under the picture i keep refering tois "HOWITZER caissons roll up alkali ridge behing galloping teams. Horse artillery, integral part of division, has mounted cannoneers."
as someone who loves to drive artillery carriages of whatever type, albeit often into trees, gates, or bystanders, i know a 6 up with limber and caisson when i see it.
the article says that the 1st cav had 67 37mm antitank guns (though not what their traction was, and it may have been mixed), 24 75mm howitzers, and 28 81 mm mortars.
these little pnuematic-tired limbers and caissons look like they could serve a 37mm antitank gun as well as a 75mm howitzer. it looks like jeep-sized wheels (the 37mm had the same wheels as the jeep). speculation only, i know.
"as soon as they are produced, they (1st cav) will have a dozen 105mm howitzers." (it doesn't say what their traction will be).
sorry i am too unskilled to scan this. maybe someone can acess life magazine.
there was definitely horse drawn artillery coexisting with cavalry into 1941.
i would love to get my hands on the book i see on amazon as "unavailable," Parting shots: Tales from the last days of horse-drawn field artillery in the U.S. Army (1938-1942)
by G. C Tompkins, 232 pages
Publisher: G.T. Co. Operation Analysis Inc; 1st ed edition (1988)
ASIN: B00071PJ5S)
i may try it on interlibrary loan.
also, the last official, to&e army equine units to stand down included a qm pack company and a pack arty company (both mule units) at ft. carson, 1956, per "bellsharps and shavetails" [a great book!!].
as i actually dug up my xeroxes, i see the caption under the picture i keep refering tois "HOWITZER caissons roll up alkali ridge behing galloping teams. Horse artillery, integral part of division, has mounted cannoneers."
as someone who loves to drive artillery carriages of whatever type, albeit often into trees, gates, or bystanders, i know a 6 up with limber and caisson when i see it.
the article says that the 1st cav had 67 37mm antitank guns (though not what their traction was, and it may have been mixed), 24 75mm howitzers, and 28 81 mm mortars.
these little pnuematic-tired limbers and caissons look like they could serve a 37mm antitank gun as well as a 75mm howitzer. it looks like jeep-sized wheels (the 37mm had the same wheels as the jeep). speculation only, i know.
"as soon as they are produced, they (1st cav) will have a dozen 105mm howitzers." (it doesn't say what their traction will be).
sorry i am too unskilled to scan this. maybe someone can acess life magazine.
there was definitely horse drawn artillery coexisting with cavalry into 1941.
i would love to get my hands on the book i see on amazon as "unavailable," Parting shots: Tales from the last days of horse-drawn field artillery in the U.S. Army (1938-1942)
by G. C Tompkins, 232 pages
Publisher: G.T. Co. Operation Analysis Inc; 1st ed edition (1988)
ASIN: B00071PJ5S)
i may try it on interlibrary loan.
also, the last official, to&e army equine units to stand down included a qm pack company and a pack arty company (both mule units) at ft. carson, 1956, per "bellsharps and shavetails" [a great book!!].
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throwback
yes, horse drawn, postillion driven caissons and limbers went out with the mechanization of the artillery. the 1st and 2nd cavalry divisions were mechanized in 1942-43. both were square divisions and should have had 2 field artillery battalions, fully horsed, until then. that list of "24 75mm howitzers" in the 1941 article sounds like maybe 2 battalions worth.
i'm guessing that's what the "parting shots" book is about.
i'm guessing that's what the "parting shots" book is about.
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BlueTrain
I can't argue the point about caissons because I have no illustrations or photographs in any of my own references and none of them have a T/O of the entire cavalry division either. They do have T/O's of some component elements, including the anti-tank troop but I'm pretty sure it had mechanical draft and not horses. There wasn't any reference to other artillery elements of the division but the work was about cavalry and not artillery. I have certainly seen photos of US horse-drawn artillery from between the wars but not recently enough to trust my memory. Although not all horse-drawn artillery had caissons, I think all field artillery did (horse-drawn, that is).
Practically speaking, of course, all field and siege artillery was horse artillery until tractors or trucks began to be used, but in the strictest sense, only units in which all men were mounted was horse artillery. The rest was "foot artillery," though that distiction may have not still been in use by the 20th century.
I have an illustration from a French militaria magazine from an article about the US cavalry sometime in the late 30's and it is quite interesting. There has been frequent mention of pack horses for MG's, mortars and so on but the illustration was of a large radio packed on horseback. Rather unexpected and something to think about.
Practically speaking, of course, all field and siege artillery was horse artillery until tractors or trucks began to be used, but in the strictest sense, only units in which all men were mounted was horse artillery. The rest was "foot artillery," though that distiction may have not still been in use by the 20th century.
I have an illustration from a French militaria magazine from an article about the US cavalry sometime in the late 30's and it is quite interesting. There has been frequent mention of pack horses for MG's, mortars and so on but the illustration was of a large radio packed on horseback. Rather unexpected and something to think about.
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Pat Holscher
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Timbo in Oz
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The Australian Light Horse regiments were never equipped with the Vickers Gun during wwI.
Postwar the militia LH units did have a Vickers squadron~troop each.
BUT they did have Vickers guns WITH them from 1914 on. Aust'n Light Horse MG Squadrons (from ALHMG Regiments?) with 12 packhorsed Vickers, ammo and water, were attached to each of the three reg't brigades. IE One troop of 4 Vickers per regiment.
From 1916 each troop in each Squadron in LH reg'ts had an LMG, usually a Hotchkiss Mk1, the same gun but for ammo as the Benet Mercie. Some were pack-carried, and others carried in a large boot behind the 'number one' on his horse.
Tim Bailey
Postwar the militia LH units did have a Vickers squadron~troop each.
BUT they did have Vickers guns WITH them from 1914 on. Aust'n Light Horse MG Squadrons (from ALHMG Regiments?) with 12 packhorsed Vickers, ammo and water, were attached to each of the three reg't brigades. IE One troop of 4 Vickers per regiment.
From 1916 each troop in each Squadron in LH reg'ts had an LMG, usually a Hotchkiss Mk1, the same gun but for ammo as the Benet Mercie. Some were pack-carried, and others carried in a large boot behind the 'number one' on his horse.
Tim Bailey
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deddygetty
The 2nd Cavalry Regiment had a Machine Gun Troop organized Feb. 24, 1915. It was redesignated Machine Gun Troop No.1 on Aug. 31, 1921, and re-established as Machine Gun Troop, 2nd Cavalry, Feb. 1, 1928. It was still part of the Regiment in 1936. Here is an ID tag for Pvt. Leo Benson, MG Troop, 2nd Cav.
Here is the collar insignia for the Adjutant General, MG Troop, 2nd Cavalry Regiment.
Don't attract gunfire. It irritates the people around you.
Here is the collar insignia for the Adjutant General, MG Troop, 2nd Cavalry Regiment.
Don't attract gunfire. It irritates the people around you.
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Pat Holscher
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Pat Holscher
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Philip, since you posted it, I'm hoping you may know; but in Drill Regulations for Machine-Gun Organizations Cavalry 1910, is there a good but of information on the tactics used by these units and and logistics needed to keep their animals up and going? And does anyone know, if anyone still offers that manual in print?