Most Moving War Movies

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joseph Sullivan</i>
<br />Piece of Cake, all of which I saw, is just excellent.

Joe
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I'd like to catch it all.

The Australian film Gallipoli has not yet been mentioned. It is an excellent, and very moving film. Likewise, the film Breaker Morant is well done moving film. Both films may take some criticism for presenting a very distinct viewpoint, but that doesn't detract from their quality in any way. I'd rate these films over a couple in the internet list.

The Lighthorsemen, otherwise reviewed here in the section, if a fine film, although I wouldn't quite place it in this category. Like She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, it is probably more interesting to us due to its portrayal of cavalrymen.

Pat
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I guess I should mention that Breaker Morant is also a courtroom drama. It is an excellent film, with really dramatic courtroom moments, and well presented field presentations.

Having mentioned it, I should also mention Paths Of Glory, Kirk Douglas' film dealing with a French courts martial in WWI. It is not as good as Breaker Morant, but is interesting.

Pat

[Joseph Sullivan]

You know, I have missed most of these newer films (except for Master and Commander. By newer, I maen the last 20 years or so. I got so tired of preachy films that I just stopped going. Probably would have missed M&C had not my neighbor filmed it and told me it was going to be good. Have never seen Deerhunter, Apocalypse, Hill, Das Boot, Gettysburg, etc.

We mostly go to things like Harry Potter and Star Wars.

J

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joseph Sullivan</i>
<br />You know, I have missed most of these newer films (except for Master and Commander. By newer, I maen the last 20 years or so. I got so tired of preachy films that I just stopped going. Probably would have missed M&C had not my neighbor filmed it and told me it was going to be good. Have never seen Deerhunter, Apocalypse, Hill, Das Boot, Gettysburg, etc.

We mostly go to things like Harry Potter and Star Wars.

J
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I find that I miss most of the new ones too. Probably having young kids contributes to that for both of us.

I did not see Saving Private Ryan until it was on DVD. Hamburger Hill I saw for the first time on videotape, although I do like that one. Platoon I saw at the movie theatre when it was first out, which is the same with Apocolypse Now (and I have to admit, I like the helicopter assault scene, as weird as it is, and I like Robert Duvall's cameo role, as Duvall is good in any film.).

Das Boot I saw at the theater, and later bought the German language version, with subtitles. It's better than the English dubbed version.

Of the new crop of movies that are out, I did not see any fo them at the theatre. Saving Private Ryan, Code Talkers, etc., were all eventually seen on tape or DVD. I missed The Great Raid while it was here. Band of Brothers I saw on DVD, as we do not have HBO. It is worth seeing as well.

I do think the war movies that have come out since Saving Private Ryan have been better, and different in tone, than those which preceeded it. For one thing, the use of technology has allowed the combat scenes to be unusally realistic. That was used to great effect in that movie. Also, there has been generally more willingness to protray the high losses accurately. Saving Private Ryan is actually allegorical, although it is not discussed often in that fashion, as the Ranger unit involved suffers about 80% casualties to "save" private Ryan, with the two survivors of it being relatively minor ones. The point is implicitly made that large number of men were spent in order to save those who came after them. Band of Brothers does a nice job of this also, as so many casualties are incured in the course of that film, which is actually not fictional.

Pat

[Trooper]

Joe,
New Harry Potter is released this month.
I like 'em too.

Dušan

[Pat Holscher]

Another one worth seeing in this category, I should note, is The Winter War. It's a Finnish movie, dealing with one infantry unit in the Winter War. A truly grim picture.

Pat

[throwback]

this topic seems to have provoked a better discussion of "military films" (as opposed to war films, along the lines of pat's questioning, "is this a war movie?"

having been a one-term ra, i always like films about cynical soldiers(s) who still get the job done (i.e. bridge on river kwai, zulu, etc.),

then being a romantic, i love the exotic too, like "man who would be king," and "sand pebbles,"

finally, liking something that is at least sort of realistic (who would really want to see a movie about the way things are really done?), like "private ryan" and "band of brothers."

i don't enjoy military movies that are too far off (often based on what the writer or director saw in other war movies, even though much of it doesn't apply). the recent thin red line and were soldiers once fall into that category for me.

plus, give me some good songs-- like "men of harlech" in zulu, or the instrumental of "minstrel boy" at the end of "black hawk down." extry special for those of us who can cry at the drop of a helmet.

i even get a kick out of ken curtis/festus singing in "ft. apache" and "yaller ribbon" (along with "horse soldiers," great scenes of large formations of moving u.s. cavalry-- i know discussed other places)

[Joseph Sullivan]

Men of Harlich in ZULU, sung against the Zulu chants is a memorable use of a great song. The Welsh chorus singing behnd the credit role at the end does it justice, too.

Joe

[JV Puleo]

The hymn, "Men of Harlech" is so good that it has a whole series of different versions in Welsh, English and, of all things, German. I googled it and found a site with five or six versions which adds, at the end, that the version used in ZULU is different from the generally used ones. I noticed that myself years ago when I played for a Baptist service where it was sung - having words completely different from those I remembered.
Joe Puleo

[Joseph Sullivan]

I have seen that site, and have also found yet another set of lyrics. It is a great hymn, but in truth you would be hard-pressed to find a bad Welsh hymn. The only real problem is that they as a nation of singers apparently have exceptional breath control that some of the rest of us lack. Harp of My Country may be the extreme example. My old choir master Fr. Ralph March, who was later the Music Master at Cologne Cathedral in Germany just told us to breathe as deeply as we could from the diaphram and do our best.

What do you play, Joe? Do you sing as well? I love to sing but find that fewer and fewer men do it anymore.

J

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joseph Sullivan</i>
<br /> I love to sing but find that fewer and fewer men do it anymore.

J
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Something that electronics, that is radeos and television, have slowly killed. When people had to make their own entertainment, singing was really common. Now, it is much less so, with common songs dying off.

Some study was run a while ago on songs known by children. Many common folk songs no doubt known to us where unknown to them. When it came out, I was visiting with a judge who told me he'd gone home and asked his young children if they knew the songs. They didn't. Mine likely do, but I'd frankly be embarrassed to sing in front of most folks.

I wonder how many people know all the card games? I don't. My parents did, however. And I find that rural people now are usually avid card players.

Pat

On singing in historical films, I wonder how often that is correctly portrayed? I'd likely not know if it was.

There's lots of singing in John Ford films, but I think that is in part because the entertainment values of the era were different. Now music is background, but I suspect movie audiences of another era expected some singing in a film where they might not now. However, it partly likely is correct, and the presence of unit singers, or ranch hands singing, is likely not all that far off the mark.

An odd example of it is presented in the film Michael Collins, in which the title chacter is asked to sing in a social setting, where all the people there are expected to do it. In that scene, it likely does present something correct, as I've read of that being done in the place and time depicted. It's interesting in that he protests, but goes on to sing the ballad "That's Another Reason That I Left Old Skibbereen". Not knowing a song to sing at the time was likely a little embarrassing, like not knowing how to dance in some settings is now (a fact to which I can personally testify to), while watching the scene now is a little embarrassing, as you can picture yourself in it feeling odd.

[JV Puleo]

I play, or played would be a better description, the Scottish Bagpipes. I was never very good and am now many years out of practice but I still have them and even occasionally pick them up. The case is open on my desk right now.
And yes, I do like singing though there are few occasions left where it's considered appropriate. I usually do when alone, especially in my car. I especially like hymns and martial songs. As a boy I learned many of the CW songs from my grandmother who, in turn, had learned them in school as a girl. Since she was born in '93 there were plenty of GAR men still alive.
We could make a list of the good ones, like:
Columbia The Gem of the Ocean
Battle Hymn of the Republic
Rally 'Round the Flag Boys
Marching Through Georgia
and on...
There's also:
Over There
Pack Up Your Troubles
It's a Long Way to Tipperary
The British Grenadiers
A friend of mine has a particular favorite that is pratcially unknown:
"I'd Like to see the Kaiser with a Lily in His Hand"
Having looked it up, I've been singng Men of Harlech all afternoon!

Of course you can tell I grew up in the North. We learned Dixie in school (we still had music and singing when I was in Junior High School) but it wasn't on my grandmother's list.

Joe P

[Joseph Sullivan]

Slowly, true socialization is dying. One of the reasons I like hunting camp so much is that people actually converse and sing -- instead of mutually watchng the boob tube or listening to the radio.

I love to sing. and will do so with the least provocation. Used to play cards, too, having been taught by grandmothers, aunts and great aunts, and my mother as my father is not a card player. Grandfather played cards, but not with small children. Cards were a big part of our entertainment. We all knew War, of course, and Slap Jack, but as we got older we played Canasta, Gin, Gin Rummy, Hearts, Fantan, and among the boys, Poker and Stud. Later I learned Spades. Would be hard pressed to play any of those without coaching now. My wife doesn't like cards (personal preference, not a moral issue), so we play little here, and all those older relatives are now dead.

You know, we also used to collectively work big jigsaw puzzles, too.

Lots of simple pleasures have been killed by the electronic age.

BTW, we dance frequently, beng members of four local clubs each of which sponsors three to four black-tie dinner dances during the season. However, I am here to tell you that the quality of conversation is declining. Wit is rare. People are not up on current events, except for the strident few from whom you would prefer not to hear. So, if you go to a dance, you dance or get bored. Happily, there are still plenty of good dance bands around.

J

[Pat Holscher]

There's actually a book on that topic, although I have not read it, entitled "Bowling Aone".

One of the things that book details is the decline of fraternal organizations. That's of note here, as this society is a type of fraternal organization, defining fraternal to include our brothers and sisters. Chances are many of us here are those who still engage in the occasional rousing conversation, which is evidenced by the quality of the debates here.

Also of note, when people remove themselves from the distractions of modern life, they tend not to miss them fairly rapidly, at least in so far as tv is concerned. Indeed, a return to it is usually not all that welcome, although the return comes anyway.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by stretch74</i>
<br />Can't believe no one has brought up "Patton".
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Patton is a really good film. Of the American biographical military films, it's likely the best. An excellent script (reviewed by Omar Bradley) excellent director, and great cast really made it.

In fact, it's so good, that it likely has defined the public image of George S. Patton, Omar Bradley and, in the US, Bernard Law Montgomery. George C. Scott's portrayal of Patton is excellent, but of course it is still Scott, which is often forgotten. And the movie's portrayal of Mongtomery is not really fair to his actually history, but has come to be the accepted version of it in the US.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

An added item on Patton worthy of note is that it came out in 1973. The last year that US combat troops were in Vietnam. Odd thing to realize.

Pat

[Redhorse]

I have Patton and it is a really good movie, but it is not really all that moving for me, personally. That's why I did not include it in my list. I did not include "Glory" for the same reason.

Stephen P. Wuensche
Captain, US Army
Field Artillery

"The guns! Thank God for the guns!" - Kipling

[Pat Holscher]

A funny thing about Patton is that while it is a good film, it likely would not compare favorably in terms of material accuracy with the current films, no matter their quality.

Patton made use of the then standard practice to have an actual army stand in for a large army where possible. The Spanish army actually provided a lot of troops for the film, and equipment. The HE111s are Spanish Air Force aircraft, and are the only German aircraft in the whole film. The armor is all Spanish US made armor, with M48s filling in for all the German armor.

Even by some contemporary standards the film falls short in that regards. Kelly's Hero's, for example, which wouldn't make anyones list for most moving, has a lot more accurate equipment than Patton.

Pat

[george seal]

I have a thing for German WWII movies. The experience of loosing the war made quite a cultural shock and it shows in their best movies.

I can hardly remember THE BRIDGE (hope that's the US Title) as it's a black and white movie that does not get any more TV rotation in Chile, but it impacted me as a Child. It's about a bunch of school kids drafted to defend a bridge against the US Army with the reggretable results that where to be expected.

All quiet on the Western Front is also very good, I like both versions but have not seen them in many years. Too bad Remarke had only one good book in him.

I have seen Das Boot a gazillion times. It's great. The ending is really shocking, seeng the Capitain die looking at his ship sinking on port after it's terrible ordeal.

Unfortunatelly I have not seen Stalingrad.

One of the last films I saw on the Cinema (last month) was Falldown. Really something. I don't think I'll forget seeing Martha Goebbels killing her children before comiting suicide. Really haunting.

[Pat Holscher]

George, I would recommend Stanlingrad to you. It is by the same director as Das Boot. The unit involved is some sort of special infantry unit, and the film follows them from the time of their transfer to Italy through the end at Stalingrad.

It is not a pleasant film.

I'd also recommend The Winter War. It isn't a German film, of course, but presents the Winter War from a Finnish prospective quite well. Also not a pleasant film.

Pat

On All Quite On The Western Front, I'd note that it has been filmed three times. There's a silent version which is a good silent movie. The Lou Ayers (sp?) version is the one most people have seen, and it is very good. A version was made for TV with Michael Thomas and Ernest Borgnine that is also very good. I actually prefer that version.

Remarque actually appeared in a film about the Germans in WWII. I can't recall the title, but the story centers on a German infantryman who is serving on the Russian Front. He meets a girl while home on leave and it turns out she's part Jewish. They marry, and part of the story involves avoiding the German authorities. Combat begins to wear him down, as does the inhumanity of the German cause. PLOT SPOILER COMING UP. He gets killed in action.

Remark plays a professor the infantryman knows and likes and with whom he visits on leave.

[george seal]

Pat, the fim with Remarke's acting (his only acting role, he was script consultant for Longest Day) is a Time to Love and a Time to Die (1958) plays Professor Pohlmann. I have not seen it.