Roy, in terms of saddle size, did Rhodesia stick with the same sizes that the U.S. Army had?
I wonder if any Rhodesian saddles ever left the country?
Pat
Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts
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roy elderkin
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Hellow Pat
I hope that you did not over indulge, during the festive ritual.
The majority of sizes were standard, to the US, although we did make some which were smaller, we did have a problem in obtaining raw materials, because of sanctions. Therefore we could not make many variations in sizes, so it was a question of standardization, which in some respects effected our selection of remounts, but not dramatically. As our horse selection was centered around the same conformation,and we were able to find sufficient horses to meet this need. Had we not been able to find the type of horse we required, then I think we may have run into trouble, because of the variations in conformation.
This is why the selection of remounts is extremley important, and why we payed so much attention to it. The fit all saddle does not work all the time, there will always be variations in a horses conformation, but you can go a long way by selection, and building saddles to suit variations, provided you are not silly about it. Having to many saddle variants, can be counter productive when you are having to produce them, it is better to have a standard and stay with it, and select around it. In that we did not do so bad.
A number of saddles left the country, and were earmarked for the SADF [South African Defence Forces], some found there way to Namibia. But to my knowledge none left Africa, but I could be wrong.
Roy
I hope that you did not over indulge, during the festive ritual.
The majority of sizes were standard, to the US, although we did make some which were smaller, we did have a problem in obtaining raw materials, because of sanctions. Therefore we could not make many variations in sizes, so it was a question of standardization, which in some respects effected our selection of remounts, but not dramatically. As our horse selection was centered around the same conformation,and we were able to find sufficient horses to meet this need. Had we not been able to find the type of horse we required, then I think we may have run into trouble, because of the variations in conformation.
This is why the selection of remounts is extremley important, and why we payed so much attention to it. The fit all saddle does not work all the time, there will always be variations in a horses conformation, but you can go a long way by selection, and building saddles to suit variations, provided you are not silly about it. Having to many saddle variants, can be counter productive when you are having to produce them, it is better to have a standard and stay with it, and select around it. In that we did not do so bad.
A number of saddles left the country, and were earmarked for the SADF [South African Defence Forces], some found there way to Namibia. But to my knowledge none left Africa, but I could be wrong.
Roy
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Nigel Ramshaw
Hello Roy
I have been reading with great interest your input about Grey’s Scouts and as a former serving member myself remember you, though you probably don’t remember me. I felt that I had to make a contribution about my experiences with the regiment from the lower ranking perspective. I signed on for three years as a regular soldier in 1977 aged 16, being naturally attracted to a mounted unit due to having been riding from a young age, mostly at Llewelyn Barracks near Bulawayo where my father was a serving soldier based as an instructor at the Medical Training School. Llewelyn had a riding stables and many events were held there which incorporated skill at arms. I was always in awe at the expertise of participating riders at picking out wooden tent pegs at the gallop, as I couldn’t quiet get the hang of it.
Grey’s Scouts didn’t at that time have its own basic training course and I and a few others were packed-off to the Rhodesian Light Infantry (RLI) for six months. On returning to Grey’s aged 17, more training followed, mostly on the end of a longe line without stirrups. I remember all too well the blisters down the inside of both legs, much more painful than the foot blisters gained at the outset of training with the RLI. As a competent rider I was soon put to work in what we described as the remount section, preparing the new horses that you were buying for the bush, most of which I must say were already adequately broken-in and only needed work on their fitness, combat awareness and building-up after their long journey from South Africa. This all coincided with vet checks, and shooing. Some were a little less trained, as I and my colleagues were many times unceremoniously dumped into the rubber shavings on the riding school floor, accompanied by hoots of laughter from fellow remount riders and anyone else who enjoyed entertaining themselves by watching us work. Interestingly, none of the spectators fancied a go! So it was up to us to get back on again, and again until the job was done. It was certainly entertaining and at times it must have resembled a rodeo to our onlookers.
Some fox hounds were introduced into the regiment and I was put to work on training these to follow human spoor with us following up on horseback. So we were training horses and hounds together. We only used the hounds on ops twice. The first time when I was attached to the regiments territorial B Squadron. The idea was that I and a colleague would be based separately from the rest of the Squadron at Fort Victoria with the RLI’s fire force, this giving us quick access to a helicopter should the guys out on patrol have a contact. We were then in a position to deploy rapidly with four hounds to the contact area for follow-up. It was great to see some of my old RLI friends who I had trained with, and they found our work with the horses and hounds fascinating. To expand on the idea further, we were to go to the contact area, from where two soldiers would dismount and fly back to our base. We would then use their mounts and our hounds to follow-up the enemy spoor.
Just when we were beginning to think that this is never going to happen, at sun-up one day I was called to the ops room and informed that our guys had just had a contact with a small group of terrorists and had blood spoor. My colleague, me and four hounds (two each) were soon in the chopper ready to go. I can tell you that it isn’t an easy task controlling excited hounds on leads whilst also coping with your webbing, FN rifle, ear phones for communication in the chopper and the limited space of the Allouette III. I was sat next to the pilot, but looking backwards facing the technician who controlled, I think, a 50mm browning, no doors. We had one hound each on the floor, between our knees and the other on the seat with us held on a short lead over our laps where our rifles were also positioned not cocked with safety catches on and barrels pointed outward. It was very difficult to keep the hounds under control.
The flight took about ten minutes, then the pilot suddenly banked the chopper to his left do his routine 360 around the landing zone. While I knew it was impossible to fall out the door, the hound on my lap hadn’t yet mastered the science of centrifugal force and despite my best efforts of holding him in position by his collar he scratched and clawed his way backwards and upwards towards the pilot until his hind legs were on the pilots lap, his tail giving the pilot’s face a few untimely slaps, the chopper doing things like one of the new remount’s and the pilot glaring at me and mouthing something which I couldn’t hear above the roar of the engine, which I’m sure you can imagine wasn‘t very pleasant. The technician eventually gave me a hand to pull the hound off and hold him until we landed. My arms were badly scratched and a lesson had been learned by all for next time we use this mode of transport with hounds. I had a bit of a wry smile about it afterwards because the pilot on getting into the chopper said: “so there’s been a contact between your guys and the ters, the guys bomb-shelled and the ters are on tracks of 16”. He laughed at what was normal friendly banter between the different factions of the Rhodesian armed services. I thought we had given him a trip that he will never forget.
Two guys had been selected to give up their horses and jumped into the chopper and were gone. We examined the spoor and excited the hounds by repeating the word ‘track’ in a rapid manor. Noses to the ground the hounds sniffed around, we moved the hounds from the range of the wind blown up by the chopper, this having blown any spoor to the four corners. The hounds still on their leads soon picked up the spoor and were straining to get going. We corrected stirrup lengths and made sure everyone was ready for the chase. We released the hounds, quickly mounted and set off at the gallop. All was going well and we switched between single file and open order as the terrain changed. Then, disaster, we lost them because the bush got too thick to follow at their speed. Bye bye hounds. We will never know if they caught up with the ters or even did their own cross border raid but they were AWOL. All four suddenly reappeared about noon the next day, miles from where we lost contact and were none the worse for their experience.
On another occasion, the same colleague and I were again based with B Squadron, when a TA infantry unit not far from us requested the hounds after coming across tracks. We were asked if it was possible to follow-up on foot with the hounds on leads. We jumped at the chance to try it and soon found ourselves delivered by vehicle to their position, this time with only two hounds. We successfully ran on spoor until one of the TA guys needed medical attention due to being overcome with heat stroke. We were forced to stop and wait for him to be choppered out. While waiting, a small aircraft, probably a local farmer, flew over what we assumed would be the direction of the rest of the spoor and the officer in command of the patrol decided that the ters would have bombshelled as a result. He took the decision to call off the hunt, much to our disappointment. We were going to be choppered out with the casevac. Always mindful of the sanctions against Rhodesia and the accompanying fuel shortage, we ran between one potential landing zone and another, directed by the pilot, hounds on leads and virtually carrying the casevac between us. On the fourth attempt the pilot found a suitable spot to hover to get us in, but I couldn’t help thinking to myself with a smile that it is probably the same pilot as the last time just getting his own back after recognizing those two pesky Grey’s Scouts and their hounds!
When we got back to base camp, I was called into the ops tent and congratulated by the Officer Commanding. I said for what Sir, we didn’t get anything. He said we had a very good follow up and worked out from where we were dropped and picked up that we had covered 15 km. It didn’t feel like that far and the episode seemed to only take an hour and half. It was obviously much longer. But the point is that we had proved it could be done. It must be said that a hound on a lead can pull you along to make for much easier running on spoor with full kit. No wonder the poor TA guy succumbed to the heat. And remembering the state of the other TA guys, I don’t think they would have been able to go much further anyway.
Unfortunately, we never managed to claim a complete success with the hounds due to the war ending, but I’m certain that if this wasn’t the case, we would have been successful eventually.
In relation to Marie’s question about Cindy, I remember the horse well and in fact she became a favourite of mine. I used her in a cross country event that the Grey’s entered in 1979 at the Oakley Equestrian Centre in Umwindsidale, Salisbury. A photo of my colleague Lance Quinlan and I appeared in one of the National newspapers after the final weekend event. The event was over four weekends and the Grey’s Scouts team of four riders came 14th first time out and second the following three weekends. I have a copy of the photo but I’m not sure how to incorporate it here. Cindy was a fantastic jumper and never let me down.
Nigel Ramshaw
I have been reading with great interest your input about Grey’s Scouts and as a former serving member myself remember you, though you probably don’t remember me. I felt that I had to make a contribution about my experiences with the regiment from the lower ranking perspective. I signed on for three years as a regular soldier in 1977 aged 16, being naturally attracted to a mounted unit due to having been riding from a young age, mostly at Llewelyn Barracks near Bulawayo where my father was a serving soldier based as an instructor at the Medical Training School. Llewelyn had a riding stables and many events were held there which incorporated skill at arms. I was always in awe at the expertise of participating riders at picking out wooden tent pegs at the gallop, as I couldn’t quiet get the hang of it.
Grey’s Scouts didn’t at that time have its own basic training course and I and a few others were packed-off to the Rhodesian Light Infantry (RLI) for six months. On returning to Grey’s aged 17, more training followed, mostly on the end of a longe line without stirrups. I remember all too well the blisters down the inside of both legs, much more painful than the foot blisters gained at the outset of training with the RLI. As a competent rider I was soon put to work in what we described as the remount section, preparing the new horses that you were buying for the bush, most of which I must say were already adequately broken-in and only needed work on their fitness, combat awareness and building-up after their long journey from South Africa. This all coincided with vet checks, and shooing. Some were a little less trained, as I and my colleagues were many times unceremoniously dumped into the rubber shavings on the riding school floor, accompanied by hoots of laughter from fellow remount riders and anyone else who enjoyed entertaining themselves by watching us work. Interestingly, none of the spectators fancied a go! So it was up to us to get back on again, and again until the job was done. It was certainly entertaining and at times it must have resembled a rodeo to our onlookers.
Some fox hounds were introduced into the regiment and I was put to work on training these to follow human spoor with us following up on horseback. So we were training horses and hounds together. We only used the hounds on ops twice. The first time when I was attached to the regiments territorial B Squadron. The idea was that I and a colleague would be based separately from the rest of the Squadron at Fort Victoria with the RLI’s fire force, this giving us quick access to a helicopter should the guys out on patrol have a contact. We were then in a position to deploy rapidly with four hounds to the contact area for follow-up. It was great to see some of my old RLI friends who I had trained with, and they found our work with the horses and hounds fascinating. To expand on the idea further, we were to go to the contact area, from where two soldiers would dismount and fly back to our base. We would then use their mounts and our hounds to follow-up the enemy spoor.
Just when we were beginning to think that this is never going to happen, at sun-up one day I was called to the ops room and informed that our guys had just had a contact with a small group of terrorists and had blood spoor. My colleague, me and four hounds (two each) were soon in the chopper ready to go. I can tell you that it isn’t an easy task controlling excited hounds on leads whilst also coping with your webbing, FN rifle, ear phones for communication in the chopper and the limited space of the Allouette III. I was sat next to the pilot, but looking backwards facing the technician who controlled, I think, a 50mm browning, no doors. We had one hound each on the floor, between our knees and the other on the seat with us held on a short lead over our laps where our rifles were also positioned not cocked with safety catches on and barrels pointed outward. It was very difficult to keep the hounds under control.
The flight took about ten minutes, then the pilot suddenly banked the chopper to his left do his routine 360 around the landing zone. While I knew it was impossible to fall out the door, the hound on my lap hadn’t yet mastered the science of centrifugal force and despite my best efforts of holding him in position by his collar he scratched and clawed his way backwards and upwards towards the pilot until his hind legs were on the pilots lap, his tail giving the pilot’s face a few untimely slaps, the chopper doing things like one of the new remount’s and the pilot glaring at me and mouthing something which I couldn’t hear above the roar of the engine, which I’m sure you can imagine wasn‘t very pleasant. The technician eventually gave me a hand to pull the hound off and hold him until we landed. My arms were badly scratched and a lesson had been learned by all for next time we use this mode of transport with hounds. I had a bit of a wry smile about it afterwards because the pilot on getting into the chopper said: “so there’s been a contact between your guys and the ters, the guys bomb-shelled and the ters are on tracks of 16”. He laughed at what was normal friendly banter between the different factions of the Rhodesian armed services. I thought we had given him a trip that he will never forget.
Two guys had been selected to give up their horses and jumped into the chopper and were gone. We examined the spoor and excited the hounds by repeating the word ‘track’ in a rapid manor. Noses to the ground the hounds sniffed around, we moved the hounds from the range of the wind blown up by the chopper, this having blown any spoor to the four corners. The hounds still on their leads soon picked up the spoor and were straining to get going. We corrected stirrup lengths and made sure everyone was ready for the chase. We released the hounds, quickly mounted and set off at the gallop. All was going well and we switched between single file and open order as the terrain changed. Then, disaster, we lost them because the bush got too thick to follow at their speed. Bye bye hounds. We will never know if they caught up with the ters or even did their own cross border raid but they were AWOL. All four suddenly reappeared about noon the next day, miles from where we lost contact and were none the worse for their experience.
On another occasion, the same colleague and I were again based with B Squadron, when a TA infantry unit not far from us requested the hounds after coming across tracks. We were asked if it was possible to follow-up on foot with the hounds on leads. We jumped at the chance to try it and soon found ourselves delivered by vehicle to their position, this time with only two hounds. We successfully ran on spoor until one of the TA guys needed medical attention due to being overcome with heat stroke. We were forced to stop and wait for him to be choppered out. While waiting, a small aircraft, probably a local farmer, flew over what we assumed would be the direction of the rest of the spoor and the officer in command of the patrol decided that the ters would have bombshelled as a result. He took the decision to call off the hunt, much to our disappointment. We were going to be choppered out with the casevac. Always mindful of the sanctions against Rhodesia and the accompanying fuel shortage, we ran between one potential landing zone and another, directed by the pilot, hounds on leads and virtually carrying the casevac between us. On the fourth attempt the pilot found a suitable spot to hover to get us in, but I couldn’t help thinking to myself with a smile that it is probably the same pilot as the last time just getting his own back after recognizing those two pesky Grey’s Scouts and their hounds!
When we got back to base camp, I was called into the ops tent and congratulated by the Officer Commanding. I said for what Sir, we didn’t get anything. He said we had a very good follow up and worked out from where we were dropped and picked up that we had covered 15 km. It didn’t feel like that far and the episode seemed to only take an hour and half. It was obviously much longer. But the point is that we had proved it could be done. It must be said that a hound on a lead can pull you along to make for much easier running on spoor with full kit. No wonder the poor TA guy succumbed to the heat. And remembering the state of the other TA guys, I don’t think they would have been able to go much further anyway.
Unfortunately, we never managed to claim a complete success with the hounds due to the war ending, but I’m certain that if this wasn’t the case, we would have been successful eventually.
In relation to Marie’s question about Cindy, I remember the horse well and in fact she became a favourite of mine. I used her in a cross country event that the Grey’s entered in 1979 at the Oakley Equestrian Centre in Umwindsidale, Salisbury. A photo of my colleague Lance Quinlan and I appeared in one of the National newspapers after the final weekend event. The event was over four weekends and the Grey’s Scouts team of four riders came 14th first time out and second the following three weekends. I have a copy of the photo but I’m not sure how to incorporate it here. Cindy was a fantastic jumper and never let me down.
Nigel Ramshaw
Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat
I would like to thank yourself and the forum, for allowing the correspondence to entered in this thread. It is a fitting place for sodiers like Julian Scholtz to be honored and remembered.
Julian was an original member of Grey's, when it was first being formed and attached to B Sqn, the TA Sqn. He did his call up like every one else, without complaint because he thought that it was his duty to do so.
The horse Tango who Marie refers to was part of a batch of horses, that came up from Newcastle in the Transvaal,she was boerperd and was in the same batch as my horse Frazer. Snares were a curse, and we were very lucky not to loose any horse, caused by them.
Once again thank you all very much.
Roy
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roy elderkin
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Hi Nigel
Now there is a voice from the past, I have tried to send your photo in and we will get to see if it has gone through. I am sorry if we inflicted pain, but time was not on our side, and we had to get you trained, and out on ops. If we had been given more time I think you would have been trained more decently.
Roy
Now there is a voice from the past, I have tried to send your photo in and we will get to see if it has gone through. I am sorry if we inflicted pain, but time was not on our side, and we had to get you trained, and out on ops. If we had been given more time I think you would have been trained more decently.
Roy
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Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by roy elderkin</i>
<br />Hi Nigel
Now there is a voice from the past, I have tried to send your photo in and we will get to see if it has gone through. I am sorry if we inflicted pain, but time was not on our side, and we had to get you trained, and out on ops. If we had been given more time I think you would have been trained more decently.
Roy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nigel, I'll be happy to put the photo up for you and Roy. It will likely be tomorrow.
Pat
<br />Hi Nigel
Now there is a voice from the past, I have tried to send your photo in and we will get to see if it has gone through. I am sorry if we inflicted pain, but time was not on our side, and we had to get you trained, and out on ops. If we had been given more time I think you would have been trained more decently.
Roy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Nigel, I'll be happy to put the photo up for you and Roy. It will likely be tomorrow.
Pat
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Here's the photo of Nigel and Cindy. As always, I'm assuming this photo is copyright clear.
By the way, one of the real pleasures for those of us who manage this site is to see the participation of actual horse troops. If this website contributed only that, it would be well worth it. Naturally, there are not a lot of former cavalrymen and mounted infantrymen who have participated here, as the population of horse soldiers is not what it once was, due to there being a lot less mounted military than there once was. It's a real honor to us that some of you have chosen to participate here.
So, on behalf of all of us, its good to see you, Nigel, and you, Roy, participating here.
Pat
Last edited by Pat Holscher on Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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danjou
Very interested in the Greys Scouts ,are there any books about the Greys? read they had a support Sqd mortors 81mm and 82mm etc was this section mounted or had trucks. Did the Greys have a normal Base group i.e with Military Police section Drivers etc. I see on some photos some soldiers had beards was this like the Selous Scouts ie could you grow one if wanted
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roy elderkin
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danjou
You will not find any books on the Grey's, the only things you will find are those in the Rhodesian Army Association publications, and various other publications. You have to remember that the origanal training manual for the Regt was written after 1980, this was done when the intragration of the the former combatants was being carried out. This manual is now archived, and the property of the now Zimbabwe Govt, it is highly unlikely that you will have access to it, as a lot of it is still active. I wrote the maunual and it was handed over on its completion. I cannot even publish some this information on the Forum, and remains locked in my head.
Regarding the mortors, they were mounted on vehicles, although I did design a pack system to carry mortors and bombs for a cross border operation. We did not use Military Police Drivers, we had home grown drivers, which were attached to HQ Sqn and or the Sabre Sqn. Regarding beards they were permitted only if there were medical reasons for them, or the soldier came into the Regt with one namely TA, otherwise all soldiers were shaved, Selous Scouts were permitted to grow beards because of the nature of their cladistine ops.
Roy
You will not find any books on the Grey's, the only things you will find are those in the Rhodesian Army Association publications, and various other publications. You have to remember that the origanal training manual for the Regt was written after 1980, this was done when the intragration of the the former combatants was being carried out. This manual is now archived, and the property of the now Zimbabwe Govt, it is highly unlikely that you will have access to it, as a lot of it is still active. I wrote the maunual and it was handed over on its completion. I cannot even publish some this information on the Forum, and remains locked in my head.
Regarding the mortors, they were mounted on vehicles, although I did design a pack system to carry mortors and bombs for a cross border operation. We did not use Military Police Drivers, we had home grown drivers, which were attached to HQ Sqn and or the Sabre Sqn. Regarding beards they were permitted only if there were medical reasons for them, or the soldier came into the Regt with one namely TA, otherwise all soldiers were shaved, Selous Scouts were permitted to grow beards because of the nature of their cladistine ops.
Roy
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danjou
Roy,many thank's for your quick reply in what I feel is a very interesting subject,BOOK'S just had e-mail from a friend in france she is going to send me a book "Commandos De Brousse" by former Greys Scouts Officer Patrick Ollivier sadly its in french and will take me years to get thru it. Have been informed there is a US paperback (came out mid1980s) "Major Mike" by Maj Mike Williams officer Greys Scouts ( have just checked www,abebooks.com they still have copies)
1Q Did you know both officer's? as 1 was french the other american were ther many foreign nationals in the unit
2Q After 1980 were there any problems intergrating former "Terrs" into the former Rhodesian army (discipline etc)
3Q I have the beret insignia of the Transki Mounted Unit its just the same as Greys Scouts(but as MOUNTED INFANTRY in the scroll) did many former members of Greys join this unit after 1980(have you any info regarding beret insignia)
Cheers
1Q Did you know both officer's? as 1 was french the other american were ther many foreign nationals in the unit
2Q After 1980 were there any problems intergrating former "Terrs" into the former Rhodesian army (discipline etc)
3Q I have the beret insignia of the Transki Mounted Unit its just the same as Greys Scouts(but as MOUNTED INFANTRY in the scroll) did many former members of Greys join this unit after 1980(have you any info regarding beret insignia)
Cheers
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roy elderkin
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Patrick Ollivier I knew well, his book does not do the Grey's justice but is reasonable. As for Mike Williams I knew of him but that is as far as I will comment, as for his exploits it leaves a lot to be desired, and is full of his own self importance, as you can see I am not a fan. We had a number of foreign nationals some were very good, others not so hot
There were no problems after 1980 with intergration, we put down the rules early and the horses did the rest.
One or two went to the Transki, the badge was borrowed by Ron Reid Daily who was the former commanding officer of Selous Scouts when he was employed by the Transki Defence Forces, he had a habit of using other peoples ideas and claiming as his own, although in this case he could not use the name Grey's Scouts.
Roy
There were no problems after 1980 with intergration, we put down the rules early and the horses did the rest.
One or two went to the Transki, the badge was borrowed by Ron Reid Daily who was the former commanding officer of Selous Scouts when he was employed by the Transki Defence Forces, he had a habit of using other peoples ideas and claiming as his own, although in this case he could not use the name Grey's Scouts.
Roy
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danjou
Just to say many thank's Roy, in an old mail you mention the "Lion and Tusk" magazine were could I get a copy??
again many thanks for your input its been great reading
again many thanks for your input its been great reading
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danjou
Just one more Q before you get to bored
The Greys Scouts Slouch Hat when was it first used and was it just for Officers. Most photos I have seen of Greys Scouts in dress greens they are wereing berets, there is a photo in a US magazine of Maj Williams and L/Cpl Ed Wandell both US nationals wereing berets with greens .
Q2 did the Greys ever were the staff corps beret badge as MIU
again hope I'm not boreing you
The Greys Scouts Slouch Hat when was it first used and was it just for Officers. Most photos I have seen of Greys Scouts in dress greens they are wereing berets, there is a photo in a US magazine of Maj Williams and L/Cpl Ed Wandell both US nationals wereing berets with greens .
Q2 did the Greys ever were the staff corps beret badge as MIU
again hope I'm not boreing you
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roy elderkin
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You are not boring me, I am only to happy to answer any questions you may have. Actualy the forum is about the only place where you will find so much written about Grey's, nobody else does. Books written by Patrick and Mike Williams are not true historical books, showing the history of Grey's they are more biographical.
Grey's bush hats were only issued to regulars of all ranks, although they were in short supply, and not all were issued with them, there was a difference between ORs and Officers in that Officers black hackles were larger. When the Regt was MIU soldiers wore their parent Regts headress, some of us were badged Staff Corp and wore staff Corp colours. When the Regt was made in 1976, its first issue was the grey beret and in the same year the bush hat was issued, but not in great numbers and the issue was restricted for a while until sufficiant numbers could be obtained from South Africa where they were made. but again not that many were issued that is why they are colectors items and as rare as hens teeth.
The Lion and Tusk can be obtained through the Rhodesian Army Association, they are on the net, but if you are looking for articles on Grey's there are only couple of items. Any others can be found under Rhodesian Counter Insurgency ops.
If you have any other questions please ask thats what we are here for.
Roy
Grey's bush hats were only issued to regulars of all ranks, although they were in short supply, and not all were issued with them, there was a difference between ORs and Officers in that Officers black hackles were larger. When the Regt was MIU soldiers wore their parent Regts headress, some of us were badged Staff Corp and wore staff Corp colours. When the Regt was made in 1976, its first issue was the grey beret and in the same year the bush hat was issued, but not in great numbers and the issue was restricted for a while until sufficiant numbers could be obtained from South Africa where they were made. but again not that many were issued that is why they are colectors items and as rare as hens teeth.
The Lion and Tusk can be obtained through the Rhodesian Army Association, they are on the net, but if you are looking for articles on Grey's there are only couple of items. Any others can be found under Rhodesian Counter Insurgency ops.
If you have any other questions please ask thats what we are here for.
Roy
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kerry savee
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Danjou,
I read Major Mike and was sorely disappointed. Don't waste your money on this book. There is nearly nothing on training or tactics or descriptions of gear and the horses are only mentioned periferally. The book is, just as the title says, about Major Mike Williams. He comes off as a big blow hard and know-it-all. His major focus is his perception of the difficulties he encountered in dealing with the military leadership in Rhodesia on one hand and the substandard colored troopies assigned to his command on the other.
Kerry
<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht
I read Major Mike and was sorely disappointed. Don't waste your money on this book. There is nearly nothing on training or tactics or descriptions of gear and the horses are only mentioned periferally. The book is, just as the title says, about Major Mike Williams. He comes off as a big blow hard and know-it-all. His major focus is his perception of the difficulties he encountered in dealing with the military leadership in Rhodesia on one hand and the substandard colored troopies assigned to his command on the other.
Kerry
<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht
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Pat Holscher
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Society Member
Donation 3rd
Roy, thanks again for all your input here. I suspect, thanks to you, the best place to learn about this topic is here.Originally posted by roy elderkin
You are not boring me, I am only to happy to answer any questions you may have. Actualy the forum is about the only place where you will find so much written about Grey's, nobody else does. Books written by Patrick and Mike Williams are not true historical books, showing the history of Grey's they are more biographical.
Grey's bush hats were only issued to regulars of all ranks, although they were in short supply, and not all were issued with them, there was a difference between ORs and Officers in that Officers black hackles were larger. When the Regt was MIU soldiers wore their parent Regts headress, some of us were badged Staff Corp and wore staff Corp colours. When the Regt was made in 1976, its first issue was the grey beret and in the same year the bush hat was issued, but not in great numbers and the issue was restricted for a while until sufficiant numbers could be obtained from South Africa where they were made. but again not that many were issued that is why they are colectors items and as rare as hens teeth.
The Lion and Tusk can be obtained through the Rhodesian Army Association, they are on the net, but if you are looking for articles on Grey's there are only couple of items. Any others can be found under Rhodesian Counter Insurgency ops.
If you have any other questions please ask thats what we are here for.
Roy
Pat
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roy elderkin
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Donation 6th
Pat
Thank you for your comments, and to the rest of the forum for their interest.
Kerry , you are right on the mark, and well said. Mike Williams problems in regard to African soldiers were that he did not know how to train them, and never took the time to understand them. Grey's produced some very fine African soldiers and horseman, highly disciplined and very proud of the Regt, that was its saving after 1980, of all the former Rhodesian units Grey's was one of few left in tact. Some of the soldiers went on to command their own Sqn's, whilst others became first class horseman and instructors, and as good as you will find anyware
Thank you for your comments, and to the rest of the forum for their interest.
Kerry , you are right on the mark, and well said. Mike Williams problems in regard to African soldiers were that he did not know how to train them, and never took the time to understand them. Grey's produced some very fine African soldiers and horseman, highly disciplined and very proud of the Regt, that was its saving after 1980, of all the former Rhodesian units Grey's was one of few left in tact. Some of the soldiers went on to command their own Sqn's, whilst others became first class horseman and instructors, and as good as you will find anyware
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danjou
Roy
I'm collecting Grey's Scouts items
Q: On e-bay last year there was for sale a Greys Scouts stable belt BUT this one was without the "Plate" front and had just the leather straps was it Greys Scouts????(there is also one on a collectors site without the plate front)
many thanks
I'm collecting Grey's Scouts items
Q: On e-bay last year there was for sale a Greys Scouts stable belt BUT this one was without the "Plate" front and had just the leather straps was it Greys Scouts????(there is also one on a collectors site without the plate front)
many thanks
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roy elderkin
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Donation 6th
The colours of the belt should be maroon over grey,the front plate should be silver with the Grey's badge in the centre. Where are the straps, no stable belts were issued in this style. The plate is worth more than the rest of the belt, so if it does not have the plate, then you are paying for a peice of cloth.
Roy
Roy
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danjou
Hi Roy the leather staps were on the side i.e UK Army, there is a site www.rhodesianmilitaria.com/ were there's Greys Scouts items it states the stable belt with the Plate was for officers only and the one with the Leather strapes was for enlisted
Q Did the Greys have any kind of Standard or Sqd Standards
as always many thanks
Q Did the Greys have any kind of Standard or Sqd Standards
as always many thanks
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roy elderkin
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Donation 6th
That is totaly incorect all soldiers irespective of rank wore a stable where the buckle was at the front, no Grey's stable belts were issued in that format. The only other stable belts that were worm prior to 1976, were staff corp belts which were dark blue with a red stripe and done up at the side UK army style.
Grey's had their own flag, again maroon over grey [or to give its correct colour plumbago] with the Regt vrest in the centre, Sqn were colour coded but never carried standards, now before you ask I cannot remeber the colours, the brain does not function that well any more.
Roy
Grey's had their own flag, again maroon over grey [or to give its correct colour plumbago] with the Regt vrest in the centre, Sqn were colour coded but never carried standards, now before you ask I cannot remeber the colours, the brain does not function that well any more.
Roy