Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat
I should have mentioned it was the Mau Mau in Kenya, led Jomo Kenyata.

Roy

Thanks. I'd completely forgotten the name of that uprising.

Finn Aagaard, the African Professional Hunter, and later a writer in the US, once wrote about being in the British military unit raised in that colony at the time of the Mau Mau Uprising. As he wrote on guns, his article was on the arms used and on military arms in general. Military arms were not his usual topic, as he wrote principally about hunting rifles. Anyway, he noted that at the time they were armed with No. 4 Enfields, but the British Army had sent two soldiers to demonstrate the new L1A1 to them. The versions they came with were actually selective fire, which was not the norm, as he related it as the only time he'd seen full automatic fire actually accurately demonstrated. Normally, he indicated he'd prefer to be under automatic fire than any other as it was so wild as a rule.



Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Although the FN was either,standard or automatic most Rhodesian Soldiers fired in what was referred to as double tap. Firing on auto was a waste of ammo whereas two well aimed shots was much better and less wasteful.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
Like with JV earlier on the M91s, I find myself in friendly disagreement with most FALs having the selective fire feature. Somewhere I have a text with the list as to which had which, it may be in a Jane's book, and most, according to that, were not selective fire. This is based on FNs information on that. I'll post that information when I get a chance so that it can be considered for what its worth.

Well I tried to look that up in Ezell, where I thought it probably was, and failed miserably. Ezell only mentions that "Identification of FALs can be puzzling." and states that the British L1A1 and Ishapore rifles are semiautomatic, but he did that in the context of noting their dirt cuts, which is an L1A1 feature. There's definatley more semi auto versions than just those, but it may well be that the selective fire variant was much more common than I thought. Clearly the SA version must have been. Indeed, perhaps the majority are. If I ever get good info, I'll post back.

As a total aside, I ran across a net item claiming that the Germans abandoned the FAL (which they adopted prior to the G3) as they didn't want anything associated with WWII. That certainly strikes me as an odd statement, as the rifle isn't a WWII rifle, and they didn't have any problem with using the MG42 or the P38 after the war.

As another total aside, I recently saw a commercial variant of the 5.56 FAL clone made by Brazil. What an interesting rifle, albeit one of the heaviest 5.56s likely ever made.

Pat

[Anulf]

Pat,

Just a bit of info for you:

Yes the Canadian FNC-1 was semi only but at that time the Canadian forces did not use the MAG. The MAG or C-6 as we call it, only came along when we switched from the FNC-1 to the C-7, which is the Canadian version of the M-16A2(?). Up until then the standard Canadian GPMG was the old Browning 1917 only in 7.62X51 NATO instead of 30Cal.

The section(or squad) weapon was the FNC-2 which was a heavy barreled FNC-1 with selective fire and a folding bi-pod. They used 30rnd mags which were carried in a "Brazier" ammo chest pouch very much like what the Rhodesian Troopies pulled off the Terrs.

As for the German FAL,...the story I read somewhere was that when the Bundeswehr was replacing it's hand me down American weapons, they bought a batch of FALs from FN Belgium, which were designated the G1. They were so impressed that they asked to manufacture them under license in Germany,(as FN did with many other countries). Basically the Belgians told the Germans to get stuffed. So the German gov't made the deal with Heckler and Koch who were building the CETME for the Spanish army in Spain, to come back to Germany to build it for them. The new firearm in 7,62NATO was the G3.

Now,...besides what Subotai has asked, I would like to know something about how the horses were prepared or rather trained up to the point where they were issued or assigned to the individual trooper for joint training as it were![eek] You know, how old were they, how were they chosen, what early handling and training,etc.?.

"ACER ET CELER"

Jack Kunst

[roy elderkin]

Hi Subotai
Thanks a lot and a merry exmas to you.

I will deal with your question when the Grey's was at full establishment, not in the early years,it is a lot easier to follow. Basicly the Regt consisted off 1 HQ Sqn, training staff, vet dept, farriers and QM staff, signalers, MT and saddlers all from which were deployed with a Sabre Sqn when required. On active ops there were 3 Sabre Sqn, two reg and ns {national service men} and one TA Sqn, at any one time 2 Sqns were or could be deployed at any one time, the TA Sqn comeing in on their normal call up pattern . Deployment of Reg SQNs was stagered because of short comeings in transport, we did not have that much. MT would deploy them and then bring back the bulk, of its transport, leaving at least four or five vehicles behind, for resuply or horse transport.
At maximum a sabre sqn consisted of up to 130 men, and was broken down as follows, HQ troop a Maj, SSM, signalers, farriers ,mt, vets ,medics and a stable manager with assistants who was responsible for the cotrol and distribution of hay and feed supplys either in the field, or at the base camp, horses were paddocked not sheltered, from their make up and breeding these horses did not require shelter. The HQ troop was also responsible for camp security along with a reserve sabre troop, we always kept one in reserve, and rotated sabre troops.
A sabre troop consisted of 34 men, broken down as follows, troop com a Lt and troop Sgt and 32 sabres, one of whom acted as a signaller, allthough others were trained to fill this post if required. Each soldier carried on a normal patrol, five magazines four in his vest one on his rifle all 7,62 ammo for either the G3 or FN a side arm either 9mm FN or later Star 9mm, two water bottles and cups , a light weight sleeping bag, and a two man bivy, a camp style gas cooker, troopers always worked on the buddy buddy system when baseing up etc, shareing weight, especialy for the radio man and lmg gunner we carried nothing heavier than this ie hmg.One complete change of cloths, no washing or shaving gear was carried, carried in saddle bags along with 4 days cube ration for his horse,his own food was his own preferance but he was issued with a twenty four hour rat pack, and they discarded what they did not want, more often than not opting for a porrige known as pro nutro, one frag grenade ot two if they did not carry a phos, a mini flair ptojector which doubled up as a single shot 22 with five rounds. In all a weight capacity all up of 200lbs this included the rider and tack. Base camp support consisted of above weaponry with addition of 20mm mortors and HMGs, which could be deployed with the reserve troop on horse transport or armoured supple vehicle if a major contact was in progress. In all their were 3 sabre troops per Sqn, all of the deployment being cotrolled by the Sqn Com, and from the rear if it was required, daily sitrep reports had to be sent from base ,and from the patrolling troop.

I hope that this is what you wanted, if not then feel free to request more info.

Roy.

[roy elderkin]

Anulf

First of all apart from a number of local horses, all horses were obtained from three distinct areas of SA ,namely Orange Free State these were cross arab boerperds, Newcastle and Carlsburg these were standard boerperds. All of which had to be no bigger than 15.4 we would stretch a point if they bigger and in good condition, but I tried to stick to a standard size as ,I was responsible for their seclection. I had the advantage of knowing where the good one were, and where the crap was, it is in another thread the reason why. But I digress, having taken out an evaluation of them height weight conformity etc. They were then subject to a vetinary examination, and because they were comeing from SA to Rhodesia they had be tested for DURIN, rather like an FFI in the army, even horses can carry a social disease.
All horses selected had to be broken in, saddle trained, and not under four years old. We looked for horse that were big boned, with good flat backs, no parrot mouths or high withers. Each animal was ridden by me or the owner, I got through a lot of horses no wonder my back is bu****, but it was the only way that good horses can be selected. More often than not we arrived earlier than arranged, so that the owners could not put any rngers in. We wanted to see them in a paddock not a stable, so that we could see how they behaved, amongst other horses, standard horse play was acceptable not one where the ears go right back and the horse means to be agressive, a trooper riding in a hot area does not need an agressive horse with others he has enough to think about.
But as I knew the area and the people I was dealing with,it was never a problem but even so it had to be checked. On average we selected twenty horses at a time, it was as many as we could carry on a 10 ton Daf transporter.
Horses were back loaded, to barracks for further documentation, and to be issued to the soldier on completion. Every horse comeing in was given a number and name if it did not already have one, and a horse record was started for it, ie colour, markings, age and where it was obtained from, whirl impressions from the fore head were recorded, teeth were checked and filed if it was required, the vet and durin certificate were attached to the horses record, even in those heady days the QM Generals staff would pay us a visit, to know how many horses we rearly did have.
Horses were left for week to aclimatize ,settle in if they had come in from along trip, this also gave vets a chance to do any TPR monitoring, before handing them over to start training. Training of horse and soldier was done together, lasting about six weeks before they became operational for both horse and soldier.
Because of the urgent need to deploy, we did not have time to break in horses that is why we selected horses that had allready been broken in. We could not afford the luxuary of a remount section, everyone was commited ie equitation and training staff.On another thread I wrote about the training of soldiers, the training of horse and soldier became one, what he was taught so did the horse, this saved a great deal of time, so that we were able push out soldiers and horses a lot faster. However his training did not end there, whilst on ops the training continued all the time, horse and soldier learning all the time, training does not stop just because it has finished in the riding school, it is relentless and forever trying to reach that mythical goal of perfection, which most of us will acknowledge is rairly achieved.
I hope that I have answered your question if not keep on asking.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by roy elderkin</i>
<br />Hi Subotai
Thanks a lot and a merry exmas to you.

I will deal with your question when the Grey's was at full establishment, not in the early years,it is a lot easier to follow. Basicly the Regt consisted off 1 HQ Sqn, training staff, vet dept, farriers and QM staff, signalers, MT and saddlers all from which were deployed with a Sabre Sqn when required. On active ops there were 3 Sabre Sqn, two reg and ns {national service men} and one TA Sqn, at any one time 2 Sqns were or could be deployed at any one time, the TA Sqn comeing in on their normal call up pattern . Deployment of Reg SQNs was stagered because of short comeings in transport, we did not have that much. MT would deploy them and then bring back the bulk, of its transport, leaving at least four or five vehicles behind, for resuply or horse transport.
At maximum a sabre sqn consisted of up to 130 men, and was broken down as follows, HQ troop a Maj, SSM, signalers, farriers ,mt, vets ,medics and a stable manager with assistants who was responsible for the cotrol and distribution of hay and feed supplys either in the field, or at the base camp, horses were paddocked not sheltered, from their make up and breeding these horses did not require shelter. The HQ troop was also responsible for camp security along with a reserve sabre troop, we always kept one in reserve, and rotated sabre troops.
A sabre troop consisted of 34 men, broken down as follows, troop com a Lt and troop Sgt and 32 sabres, one of whom acted as a signaller, allthough others were trained to fill this post if required. Each soldier carried on a normal patrol, five magazines four in his vest one on his rifle all 7,62 ammo for either the G3 or FN a side arm either 9mm FN or later Star 9mm, two water bottles and cups , a light weight sleeping bag, and a two man bivy, a camp style gas cooker, troopers always worked on the buddy buddy system when baseing up etc, shareing weight, especialy for the radio man and lmg gunner we carried nothing heavier than this ie hmg.One complete change of cloths, no washing or shaving gear was carried, carried in saddle bags along with 4 days cube ration for his horse,his own food was his own preferance but he was issued with a twenty four hour rat pack, and they discarded what they did not want, more often than not opting for a porrige known as pro nutro, one frag grenade ot two if they did not carry a phos, a mini flair ptojector which doubled up as a single shot 22 with five rounds. In all a weight capacity all up of 200lbs this included the rider and tack. Base camp support consisted of above weaponry with addition of 20mm mortors and HMGs, which could be deployed with the reserve troop on horse transport or armoured supple vehicle if a major contact was in progress. In all their were 3 sabre troops per Sqn, all of the deployment being cotrolled by the Sqn Com, and from the rear if it was required, daily sitrep reports had to be sent from base ,and from the patrolling troop.

I hope that this is what you wanted, if not then feel free to request more info.

Roy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Once again, this is just a fascinating look at how things really worked with an actual mounted unit. How very interesting.

I can't help but note your references to vetrinary personnel here. Vetrinary services in general are probably overlooked in the story of mounted units, and the several references to them here show significant they realy are. This unit in particular may stand out as the unit which received the most advanced animal health attention, based on the earlier posts, of about any mounted unit ever deployed.

I understand the term National Service men and Territorial Army men in the context of the British Army, and you've been kind enough to explain Territorial Army in the context of the Rhodesian Army in one of my prior posts. In the British Army I believe National Service men were men who were conscripted in the period following WWII, and up to some time (I think) in the 1950s. In the context of Rhodesian service were National Service men conscripted?

Also of interst here is that if we consider all the 20th Century Commonwealth and British cavalries (and stretch that back to the 1890s), the Greys would be one of the few ones of these in which ems carried sidearms routinely. There were some others, such as Canadian cavalry in the Boer War, but they are the exception to the rule.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Anulf
Pat,

Just a bit of info for you:

Yes the Canadian FNC-1 was semi only but at that time the Canadian forces did not use the MAG. The MAG or C-6 as we call it, only came along when we switched from the FNC-1 to the C-7, which is the Canadian version of the M-16A2(?). Up until then the standard Canadian GPMG was the old Browning 1917 only in 7.62X51 NATO instead of 30Cal.

The section(or squad) weapon was the FNC-2 which was a heavy barreled FNC-1 with selective fire and a folding bi-pod. They used 30rnd mags which were carried in a "Brazier" ammo chest pouch very much like what the Rhodesian Troopies pulled off the Terrs.

As for the German FAL,...the story I read somewhere was that when the Bundeswehr was replacing it's hand me down American weapons, they bought a batch of FALs from FN Belgium, which were designated the G1. They were so impressed that they asked to manufacture them under licence in Germany,(as FN did with many other countries). Basically the Belgians told the Germans to get stuffed. So the German gov't made the deal with Heckler and Koch who were building the CETME for the Spanish army in Spain, to come back to Germany to build it for them. The new firearm in 7,62NATO was the G3.

Now,...besides what Subotai has asked, I would like to know something about how the horses were prepared or rather trained up to the point where they were issued or assigned to the individual trooper for joint training as it were![eek] You know, how old were they, how were they chosen, what early handling and training,etc.?.

"ACER ET CELER"

Jack Kunst

Jack, thanks for the clarification on the MAG. In retrospect I remember that Canada had retained the M1917, but I only recalled that after I read your post.

While it would make for an interesting item elsewhere, I wonder when the last US M1917 went out of service.

On the FAL in German service, I'd heard the license story, but without the Belgians telling the BDR to forget it. I have to say that makes a great deal more sense than the other story I'd read.

I have to wonder what, if anything, was the G2?

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by roy elderkin</i>
<br />Anulf

First of all apart from a number of local horses, all horses were obtained from three distinct areas of SA ,namely Orange Free State these were cross arab boerperds, Newcastle and Carlsburg these were standard boerperds. All of which had to be no bigger than 15.4 we would stretch a point if they bigger and in good condition, but I tried to stick to a standard size as ,I was responsible for their seclection. I had the advantage of knowing where the good one were, and where the crap was, it is in another thread the reason why. But I digress, having taken out an evaluation of them height weight conformity etc. They were then subject to a vetinary examination, and because they were comeing from SA to Rhodesia they had be tested for DURIN, rather like an FFI in the army, even horses can carry a social disease.
All horses selected had to be broken in, saddle trained, and not under four years old. We looked for horse that were big boned, with good flat backs, no parrot mouths or high withers. Each animal was ridden by me or the owner, I got through a lot of horses no wonder my back is bu****, but it was the only way that good horses can be selected. More often than not we arrived earlier than arranged, so that the owners could not put any rngers in. We wanted to see them in a paddock not a stable, so that we could see how they behaved, amongst other horses, standard horse play was acceptable not one where the ears go right back and the horse means to be agressive, a trooper riding in a hot area does not need an agressive horse with others he has enough to think about.
But as I knew the area and the people I was dealing with,it was never a problem but even so it had to be checked. On average we selected twenty horses at a time, it was as many as we could carry on a 10 ton Daf transporter.
Horses were back loaded, to barracks for further documentation, and to be issued to the soldier on completion. Every horse comeing in was given a number and name if it did not already have one, and a horse record was started for it, ie colour, markings, age and where it was obtained from, whirl impressions from the fore head were recorded, teeth were checked and filed if it was required, the vet and durin certificate were attached to the horses record, even in those heady days the QM Generals staff would pay us a visit, to know how many horses we rearly did have.
Horses were left for week to aclimatize ,settle in if they had come in from along trip, this also gave vets a chance to do any TPR monitoring, before handing them over to start training. Training of horse and soldier was done together, lasting about six weeks before they became operational for both horse and soldier.
Because of the urgent need to deploy, we did not have time to break in horses that is why we selected horses that had allready been broken in. We could not afford the luxuary of a remount section, everyone was commited ie equitation and training staff.On another thread I wrote about the training of soldiers, the training of horse and soldier became one, what he was taught so did the horse, this saved a great deal of time, so that we were able push out soldiers and horses a lot faster. However his training did not end there, whilst on ops the training continued all the time, horse and soldier learning all the time, training does not stop just because it has finished in the riding school, it is relentless and forever trying to reach that mythical goal of perfection, which most of us will acknowledge is rairly achieved.
I hope that I have answered your question if not keep on asking.

Roy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Absolutely fantastic information.

I really have to thank Roy for entertaining all of our questions. This has really been a treat for us.

Pat

[Jim Ottevaere]

Wonderful and greatly interesting information. By contrast it brings to mind the process of horse selection used by a U.S. National Guard Cavalry unit upon being called to border duty in 1916. Apparantly there were more volunteers for duty than there were available horses. Since only troopers with servicable mounts would be accepted for duty, a method was devised by the Squadron's NCOs that they considered objective and fair. A large fenced concrete area was watered down to, "the proper degree of slipperiness", the horses were driven onto the wetted concrete and all the troopers were turned loose to catch an available mount. Medical staff was standing by to attend to, "the many bruises, bloody abrasions and broken bones", of both successful and unsuccessful troopers. Surprisingly no injuries to horses were reported.

[Pat Holscher]

Roy,

Quite early in this thread there's mention made of a saddlebag apparently of a unique Rhodesian pattern that was used, very early on, when the Grey's still were using the UP pattern saddlery. Was a saddlebag used with the McClellan. In looking through the photos, I haven't noted one.

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Some time back I sent a Grey's scroll to you, it depicts a stable belt, a soldier in camo, and other riders in greens. The one in camo shows saddle bags on the rear arch of the saddle, if you did not get it I will try and send another one.

As far as saddle bags were concerned we had ones that fitted the UPs and Macs, they were made out of a one piece canvas that had pockets attached to it, a slot was made and this was the same size as the rear arch, the saddle bag was placed over the rear arch, so that when the rider sat in the saddle the saddle bag was held fast under the riders weight. The saddle bag could not fall off, as it was held with the slot and the riders weight.

The saddle bag flaps were tied down with velcro straps, for quick release, the rider mearly had to pull the bag off the rear arch, it was of simple construction but very tough and durable, and above all cheap to make and waterproof.

I am not very good at drawing, but I could get you a diagram of it, there is a least one member of my family who is good at it. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by roy elderkin</i>
<br />Pat

Some time back I sent a Grey's scroll to you, it depicts a stable belt, a soldier in camo, and other riders in greens. The one in camo shows saddle bags on the rear arch of the saddle, if you did not get it I will try and send another one.

As far as saddle bags were concerned we had ones that fitted the UPs and Macs, they were made out of a one piece canvas that had pockets attached to it, a slot was made and this was the same size as the rear arch, the saddle bag was placed over the rear arch, so that when the rider sat in the saddle the saddle bag was held fast under the riders weight. The saddle bag could not fall off, as it was held with the slot and the riders weight.

The saddle bag flaps were tied down with velcro straps, for quick release, the rider mearly had to pull the bag off the rear arch, it was of simple construction but very tough and durable, and above all cheap to make and waterproof.

I am not very good at drawing, but I could get you a diagram of it, there is a least one member of my family who is good at it. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Roy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Roy, thanks. You did send me a scroll, and I'd forgotten hit had the saddlebag information on it. I'll go back and look at that.

Very interesting construction. It reminds me that the U.S. Army experimented with some canvas saddlebags in the 19th Century, but here you had the advantage of more modern materials.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Roy provided this depiction of the saddlebag. This is likely the last military design, in terms of when designed, to be used on a McClellan saddle, and perhaps the UP saddle, in the field.



Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Following is some correspondence received from Roy in reference to this thread. I’m posting it at his request.

In posting it, I note the spirit in which Roy submits the correspondence. This correspondence comes form the daughter of a veteran of this unit, and he felt the story related in it, that of an enlisted man of the unit, and horses of that unit, were a valuable addition here. I not only fully agree, but feel that his desire to post it speaks loudly in favor of him, as well as the correspondence.

Indeed this is a valuable addition to this story. In history, we are all to use to the story of the leaders. The officers, the politicians, the famous generals. But, in reality, wars are fought by the common man. And their story is as important, indeed more important, than that of the men who obtain fame through their leadership. After all, it is the service of the average man that really counts in the story of a nation. Those at the top have more than their nation’s survival at stake. They have their personal fame and glory. But the common soldier, the private, the sergeant, and the junior officer, is not concerned with that. Rather, that man has given up his private life, the quiet pleasures of his home, his vocation, and his family, for a military life he hadn’t planned on. In that, his role is more important than that of the Wellington, the Patton, the Mountbattan, the MacArthur, or the De Gaulle. His service is nothing but service, granting him nothing but the honors of his country, and the awards for his service that are all too often forgotten after his service has expired. But it is that service that really matter.

I have been reading your very interesting posts regarding Grey's Scouts. My dad was in Grey's Scouts for a number of years - he had two different uniforms so I assume he was in from quite early on. However, I just wanted to ask you - what happened to the horses used in Grey's? Were they retired after a certain length of service etc? and what happened to the rejects? I only ask this because we ended up with 5 mares from Grey's Scouts in 1977 (we lived in Norton so not too far away) - three of which were obviously not up to scratch for your purposes - two of which had seen some active service (one had scars to prove it). All were in good health. Four of these mares were in foal - the offspring all became successful riding horses and gave us great pleasure for many years. I just wondered how they ended up coming to us - I had heard that the one that I ended up adopting (Cindy/Cindie) was quite a jumper and was used in competitions (??) by a Capt. Knight or is that nonsense.

Were the horses ever used for that sort of thing? She was a boerperd cross - 14.3hh and loved to carry me off through roadside compounds at an extremely stiff determined trot with the bit between her teeth!! I did find that, apart from neck reining (very useful), I didn't have to use the reins at all and could give her commands by leg and voice alone. If there was insufficient tack to go round I would put her in a halter with a short rope and all would be well. Would this have been as a result of training with Grey's Scouts? Another point, did the riders out on patrol not find that the Maclellan saddles were a bit hard on their behinds as they do not have the usual covering i.e. they sit relatively proud of the contours of a normal saddle? I hope these questions are not off-topic and I would be interested in your reply.

Thank you
Marie

Hello again Roy

Thank you for your quick reply. When you mentioned your horse Frazer I remembered that I read in one of the posts that he was somewhat of a one man horse. It raised a laugh because the horse I got from Greys was also a one man(?) animal and offloaded all other members of the family (quite politely, both sisters into a haystack on different occasions). I had recently suffered a severe skull fracture falling from a less disciplined horse and was not supposed to ride
at the time. When I went to the paddock to see the new arrivals, only one came over to me so, after a little chat, I put a headstall on her and went off for a two hour ride (as you do when you are 12 and feel quite comfortable with your horse). Needless to say, everybody was out looking for me when I got back but the horse and I were inseparable from then on until she died ten years later! I can't remember where the 'Captain Knight' story came from - I probably got the
wrong end of the stick!

One of the horses (Tango)delivered to us had been caught by a hindleg in a snare (just above the fetlock). The snare had gone right down to the tendon so she was left with a one inch hairless scar right around the leg and a 'wiggle' when she walked. Do you remember anything like that happening? That is, I'm
assuming, if she wasn't sent to Grey's in that condition. Having said that, she was a very fast, strong horse (although slightly skittish which can be unfortunate if you are going at full speed) and was one of the mainstays of the 'herd', dying in 2002.

My dad's name was Julian Scholtz, he was quite a slight man, quiet, grey-haired, probably older than most (he was 50 in 1980) and he smoked a pipe. He was
possibly a Lance Corporal (?) and once mentioned that he drove the HCV (possibly on occasion, I don't know if that was a designated job). I was only 15 in 1980
so quite a few details are somewhat vague now so I cannot remember his Squadron, if I ever knew. He was with Charlie Johnson when he was killed in March '78 (in fact, Charlie's mum taught me to ride - she owned the riding school in Norton) and I seem to remember was a pallbearer at the funeral, if that gives you any indication? He never said much about his stints in Grey's but was very proud to be part of it.

Unfortunately, he was kicked off his farm in the land invasions and then again off the one that he moved to in Matepatepa. This was after being held up in his
home at gunpoint and fired at (luckily three rounds missed him at point blank range!!) and being threatened with a mob beating i.e. the perpetrators
tried to get his workforce to beat him (bear in mind he was then 70+) and they refused so I think that said something about the man. He had to leave behind his two remaining horses (both descendants of the 5 mares I mentioned in my first email). He was known for his quiet courage. He died in Bindura in September 2004 after a week-long illness having never had a sick day in his life, apart from the occasional cough and cold. Despite everything that happened to him in his last years, he still hoped that he could get back on the land and be productive again.

We found his Grey's beret with badge in his gun cupboard after his death. This is why I was pleased to read what you had written in the forum because it gave me some insight into the dedication and care with which the unit was trained and outfitted. On occasion, I used to go with my mum when she dropped him for his six weeks and I remember the webbing and saddlebags and rather nifty little tools he used to take with him i.e. a very lightweight but cleverly designed hoof pick made from a piece of bent lightweight metal rod so that it had a built in 'loop' for attachment to a strap at one end and a flattened digging 'blade' at the other. Also the rat packs. The only thing he really enjoyed out of those was the 'dog' biscuits.

All our horses were kept outdoors all year, foaled outdoors, had their dipping (spraying) and farrierwork done outdoors - almost never tied up for the purpose - and so on so I guess old habits die hard! They were, however, handled every day and the youngsters from birth. I also remember the MIU cubes - the horses
loved those and if you had some in your pocket you either had to give them up or have a string of four-legged followers until you could make your escape! The other thing they loved as a treat was a handful of white mealie pips.

I'd be interested to know whether you knew my dad.

Marie

Roy wrote:

Marie

I am very pleased to hear from you, what was your fathers name and what washis Sqn. I do not remember a Cpt Knight, and the only shows that we were involved in were skill at arms, at which I competed on a horse called Frazer, at Salibury Show Grounds, and the Bulawayo Trade Fair. There were a number of horses, that were sent to good homes, those in foal and those who were in need of rest, and were no longer fit for service. I am pleased that some went to you, they were highly trained horses,and were used to the leg and voice aid.. All soldiers were trained in this manner.

As for the saddle, it took some getting used to, but in the end we grew accustomed to it. Allthough there were a number of sore rear ends, to start with. Saddle sore were more of problem, as they did not have flaps, but quick a squirt of the old gentian violet and tyramiacin [excuse my spelling if it is wrong].

At the end of the war, all the original horses stayed in the Regt, and when I left in 84 they were still there. The Regt is still being used, to this day and is one of the few Regts that was permitted to keep its name and colours. As for the horses, after I left I dont know. It was bad enough having to leave them, to a fate over which I had no control. But one lives in hope that they were well cared for. I hope that , if you have any more questions I would be pleased to answer them.

Roy

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

I would like to thank yourself and the forum, for allowing the correspondence to entered in this thread. It is a fitting place for sodiers like Julian Scholtz to be honored and remembered.

Julian was an original member of Grey's, when it was first being formed and attached to B Sqn, the TA Sqn. He did his call up like every one else, without complaint because he thought that it was his duty to do so.

The horse Tango who Marie refers to was part of a batch of horses, that came up from Newcastle in the Transvaal,she was boerperd and was in the same batch as my horse Frazer. Snares were a curse, and we were very lucky not to loose any horse, caused by them.

Once again thank you all very much.

Roy

[Huertecilla]

Wow. I will read this all again and take notes.
Great to read about he lion kicked to proove horses do NOT AT ALL always flee.

Liked the wire-fence crossing procedure too. Common sense horsemanship.

The saddlebags are twins of the woolen- or linnen bags used here by the vaqueros for centuries. I have slightly different ones from cordura with a small roll behind-on the cantle.

The bent-wire hoofpick is one of the very few tools I take too.

I am going to reread so maybe i will come accross the answers bust...
1. how come you did not use tapaderos or caged stirrups like the camargues?
2. you did not picket the horses but how WERE they kept at bivac?

Although I have owned, still own and use various other saddles the McClellan is the one we use for treks.
A VERY good modern version of the McClellan was designed by Sadko.G.Solinksi in 1976 and it is still made by his master-saddler Aimee Mohammed under the malibaud brand in Val Pont d Arc.
We have one without and one with side panels. I personally like this Malibaud Gardian best.
We also use a McClellan type as used by the Costa Rican sabaneros.
My wife likes her McClellan with flexible bars best.

btw, I am dutch born so boerperd sounds quite familiar to me (smile).

Saludos cordiales,

Peter


http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/

[roy elderkin]

Peter

With regard to the stirrups, it was never considered to have them like the Carmargues, we used a standard stirrup.which could be made up in the farrier shop, without additional cost of labour and materials.

Horses were kept in pairs, as part of the basing up procedures that is a three sixty defensive position. Two men two horses at each point, men slept with their horses, and were either tethered to a tree or on the ground, with a halter rope. They were never kept in a group, a mortar round would have wiped out your horses. The three sixty positition, would reduce casualtys. We carried out other procedures to ensure that this did not happen.

Boerperd is from the Dutch, used by the Afrikaaners for the horse.

Roy

[Huertecilla]

Thank you for the prompt and clear answer.

In Dutch a farmers horse is called a boerenpaard. The Boers were a social groep from a region where the local dialect pronounced this as boernpeerd and boerperd is a very small step.
The original boerenpaard shipped with the pioneers was the Gelderlander of old. A fairly lightbuild drafthorse. This breed has not been preserved although several lines still have a large %of the old stock. The breed is of paramount importance for the breeding of the Dutch jumping horses.
I have no doubt the pragmatic and practical Boers however used what was availeble and bred with what performed best therefor boerperd being more a type like a cob is.


Peter

http://users.telenet.be/huertecilla/

[roy elderkin]

Peter

Thanks for that. Yes the Boers were very pragmatic people, and still are. Their decendants the Afrikaaner has not changed.

Roy