Great War Memorials

[dekenai]

Try this link for one of the loneliest memorials in Australia,

http://www.warmemorialsnsw.asn.au/Details.cfm?MemNo=417

dekenai

[Pat Holscher]

Highly unusual WWI Memorial:

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WA-Stonehenge.html

And a Clayton MO memorial:

http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/defau ... 0f8d&gid=2

[Couvi]

About how many lost their lives in the Great War?

[Pat Holscher]

About how many lost their lives in the Great War?

Here's a table, but I think these tables are fairly widely regarded as unreliable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Part of the problem is that I don't think civilian deaths are well tabulated. An added problem is that Russian casualties are not adequately calculated, a problem that repeats itself for the Russian Civil War and World War Two. And yet another problem is that World War One gave rise to several other wars which erupted during the course of the war. So, casualties from the Russian Civil War, the Finnish Civil War, the war between Turkey and the UK which drug on in to the 1920s, and so on, are not thrown into WWI figures. They probably shouldn't be, but then on the other hand, the war in Turkey was simply a continuation of WWI in that region, and the Russian Civil War, the Finnish Civil War, the Russo Polish War, and so on, would not have occurred but for World War One.

To throw another wild card in it, it's at least arguable that the Spanish Flu wouldn't have become the killer it did but for WWI.

So, more or less 12,000,000 people died on the battlefield or in the service (this table has it at under 10,000,000. I can't recall the figure off hand, but if you throw in all these other wars, and then throw in the Spanish Flu, you get a figure that's over three times that number. So, as an overall series of really bad events, the 1914 to 1929 period is really bad.

[Pat Holscher]

The Converse County Wyoming courthouse has a memorial for county residents who lost their lives in every war since World War One. I've never really examined it closely, but I read the names on it today while waiting for something. The memorial list the names of all of these individuals, and their rank and service branch.

To my surprise, one of the people listed, a "Van [middle name] Irvine" was listed as "British Flying Corps".

What a surprise. Douglas is not a large town now, and was a very small town in . There was an Irvine family, with at least one fairly recent "Van Irvine" that had recent Scottish roots at that time, and perhaps that explains that. But it certainly isn't something I'd expect to see.

I cross posted the Irvine information on the WWI list, and learned some really interesting information as a result.

Here they are:

Pat,

I think that you'll find the fallen flier is:

Flight Lt. Van Rensselaer Van Tassel IRVINE (aged 22), 43 Squadron RAF, d. 19 July 1918. He is commemorated on the Arras memorial and the associated CWGC entry records that he was the son of Carolyne W. Irvine, 446 San Vincente Boulevard, Santa Monica California. His father was William C. Irvine, d. Santa Monica 1924. [sources: CWGC online; http://www.linkpendium.com/genealogy/US ... ur-Irvine/)

Fraternally,

Julian

Patrick

British & Commonwealth War dead (including US citizens who fell fighting in them) are recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, who administer their graves and memorials. Their website is at: http://www.cwgc.org
and records:

IRVINE, VAN REUSSELAER VAN TASSEL

Son of Carolyne W. Irvine, of 446, San Vincente Boulevard, Santa Monica, California, U.S.A., and the late William C. Irvine.

Killed as a Lieutenant, Royal Air Force, while serving with 43 Squadron RAF 19th July 1918.

Commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Phil

The Sky their Battlefield (Trevor Henshaw) notes that he was flying Sopwith Camel F6150 possibly shot down over Nanteuil by Vizefeldwebel J Schwendemann of Jasta 41.

There should be a brief service record in AIR 76 at The National Archives & if I have time tomorrow will endeavour to seek it out.

Phil

This added information makes this a true local historical oddity.

Flight Lt. Van Rensselaer Van Tassel Irvine, we now know, was the son of William C. Irvine. William C. Irvine was from Scotland, and had come over to Natrona County Wyoming in the late 1880s to act as the overseer for a Scottish owned corporate ranch, the VR. VR itself stands for Victoria Regina, as the owners of that ranch named it after the Queen. The VR was one of the northernmost "large" ranches in the state (although not the northernmost) and was involved in the plotting that lead to the importation of hired Texas gunmen in April 1892, which resulted in the Johnson County War. Mr. W. Irvine himself absented himself from the state during this period, retuning, I believe to Scotland during this episode, although it's
widely believed he was aware of the planning for the "Invasion". He returned after the episode, and retained a presence in the state for many years thereafter The Irvine family continued to own their own ranching operation in the state at least up into the early 80s, when a later Van Irvine retired and moved to the southwest.

The "Invaders" remained somewhat unpopular in this region of the state, although they didn't leave, for many years thereafter. They were well connected politically, however, and some interesting things were named after them, including streets in Casper, Wyoming. "Van Tassel", which shows up in Flight Lt. Irvine's name, is a name that has been attached to a location in Converse County.

It's interesting that somebody remembered Ft. Lt. Irvine at the time the memorial was put up, as he wouldn't have appeared in U.S. roles. While the little history noted above is off topic, it's also interesting in that he came from a family that was associated with controversy, but that fortunately didn't deter anyone from honoring his memory. While the data on him notes that he and his family were from California, I think at that time the Irvine's maintained a residence there as well as ranching interests in Wyoming, having done quite well over time.

Here's an entry for Van Irvine at the memorial at Arras, photograph courtesy of Niall Ferguson. Thanks Naill!

[sandgroper]

Some Australian sentimentality!

http://www.maritimequest.com/misc_pages ... sydney.htm

[Pat Holscher]

The Converse County Wyoming courthouse has a memorial for county residents who lost their lives in every war since World War One. I've never really examined it closely, but I read the names on it today while waiting for something. The memorial list the names of all of these individuals, and their rank and service branch.

To my surprise, one of the people listed, a "Van [middle name] Irvine" was listed as "British Flying Corps".

What a surprise. Douglas is not a large town now, and was a very small town in . There was an Irvine family, with at least one fairly recent "Van Irvine" that had recent Scottish roots at that time, and perhaps that explains that. But it certainly isn't something I'd expect to see.

I cross posted the Irvine information on the WWI list, and learned some really interesting information as a result.

Here they are:

Pat,

I think that you'll find the fallen flier is:

Flight Lt. Van Rensselaer Van Tassel IRVINE (aged 22), 43 Squadron RAF, d. 19 July 1918. He is commemorated on the Arras memorial and the associated CWGC entry records that he was the son of Carolyne W. Irvine, 446 San Vincente Boulevard, Santa Monica California. His father was William C. Irvine, d. Santa Monica 1924. [sources: CWGC online; http://www.linkpendium.com/genealogy/US ... ur-Irvine/)

Fraternally,

Julian

Patrick

British & Commonwealth War dead (including US citizens who fell fighting in them) are recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, who administer their graves and memorials. Their website is at: http://www.cwgc.org
and records:

IRVINE, VAN REUSSELAER VAN TASSEL

Son of Carolyne W. Irvine, of 446, San Vincente Boulevard, Santa Monica, California, U.S.A., and the late William C. Irvine.

Killed as a Lieutenant, Royal Air Force, while serving with 43 Squadron RAF 19th July 1918.

Commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

Phil

The Sky their Battlefield (Trevor Henshaw) notes that he was flying Sopwith Camel F6150 possibly shot down over Nanteuil by Vizefeldwebel J Schwendemann of Jasta 41.

There should be a brief service record in AIR 76 at The National Archives & if I have time tomorrow will endeavour to seek it out.

Phil

This added information makes this a true local historical oddity.

Flight Lt. Van Rensselaer Van Tassel Irvine, we now know, was the son of William C. Irvine. William C. Irvine was from Scotland, and had come over to Natrona County Wyoming in the late 1880s to act as the overseer for a Scottish owned corporate ranch, the VR. VR itself stands for Victoria Regina, as the owners of that ranch named it after the Queen. The VR was one of the northernmost "large" ranches in the state (although not the northernmost) and was involved in the plotting that lead to the importation of hired Texas gunmen in April 1892, which resulted in the Johnson County War. Mr. W. Irvine himself absented himself from the state during this period, retuning, I believe to Scotland during this episode, although it's
widely believed he was aware of the planning for the "Invasion". He returned after the episode, and retained a presence in the state for many years thereafter The Irvine family continued to own their own ranching operation in the state at least up into the early 80s, when a later Van Irvine retired and moved to the southwest.

The "Invaders" remained somewhat unpopular in this region of the state, although they didn't leave, for many years thereafter. They were well connected politically, however, and some interesting things were named after them, including streets in Casper, Wyoming. "Van Tassel", which shows up in Flight Lt. Irvine's name, is a name that has been attached to a location in Converse County.

It's interesting that somebody remembered Ft. Lt. Irvine at the time the memorial was put up, as he wouldn't have appeared in U.S. roles. While the little history noted above is off topic, it's also interesting in that he came from a family that was associated with controversy, but that fortunately didn't deter anyone from honoring his memory. While the data on him notes that he and his family were from California, I think at that time the Irvine's maintained a residence there as well as ranching interests in Wyoming, having done quite well over time.

Here's an entry for Van Irvine at the memorial at Arras, photograph courtesy of Niall Ferguson. Thanks Naill!

And here's the memorial in Douglas, Wyoming:




And here:

http://warmonument.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... orial.html

[Pat Holscher]

Des Moines Iowa memorial to Merle Hay, one of the first three Americans to be killed in combat in WWI. Hay was killed in hand to hand combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Merlehayboulder.jpg

[Pat Holscher]

Lest we forget.

[Jim Bewley Φ]

We had an old thread on this awhile back. I'll repost the photos and comments from that one a while back, but I ran across a new one in Evanston, WY, the other day. Given as it was quite interesting and dramatic, I thought I'd post it.



Here's the photo of the Evanston, WY memorial. The base, which isn't really visible, notes that it was originally for veterans of the Civil War, the Spanish American War. World War I veterans were lated added as the "World War". WWII veterans were also listed on it. Presumably the original Civil War and Spanish American War base wasn't as substantial as the present monument, with the charging doughboy.

Pat

This one is in Emmitsburg, MD and I pass it several times a day. It is very much like the one you posted here, Pat.

Jim

[bisley45]

After the end of the ACW, a number of bronze foundries offered somewhat generic martial statues. The market was towns that wanted to memorialize their war dead. For an extra price, a "stock" statue could be fitted with a head in the likeness of a specific soldier. The WW1 soldier statues in Jim's last post are not identical, but close enough to remind me of the post-ACW statue biz.

11 Nov. is my maternal grandfather's birthday. He served in the Navy prior to WW2, eventually becoming a UDT instructor. After sustaining an injury that ended his enlistment he rode bulls and bareback broncs in rodeos in southern Arizona, where he met my barrel-racing grandmother. They were married for 67 years- that is NOT a typo.

Those of us who survived him gathered in Disneyland this past weekend to commemorate his life and celebrate his birthday. There is a war memorial there, of sorts- two Hotchkiss guns grace the little park at the top end of Main Street USA, right in front of the Main Street train station. I took pictures, and will post them if I can find the camera. We brought a small quantity of his ashes with us, and distributed them here and there, in his favorite places. There a pinch of him in each of the Hotchkiss guns.

To those of you served, my sincere thanks, and admiration!

[Jim Bewley Φ]

After the end of the ACW, a number of bronze foundries offered somewhat generic martial statues. The market was towns that wanted to memorialize their war dead. For an extra price, a "stock" statue could be fitted with a head in the likeness of a specific soldier. The WW1 soldier statues in Jim's last post are not identical, but close enough to remind me of the post-ACW statue biz.

11 Nov. is my maternal grandfather's birthday. He served in the Navy prior to WW2, eventually becoming a UDT instructor. After sustaining an injury that ended his enlistment he rode bulls and bareback broncs in rodeos in southern Arizona, where he met my barrel-racing grandmother. They were married for 67 years- that is NOT a typo.

Those of us who survived him gathered in Disneyland this past weekend to commemorate his life and celebrate his birthday. There is a war memorial there, of sorts- two Hotchkiss guns grace the little park at the top end of Main Street USA, right in front of the Main Street train station. I took pictures, and will post them if I can find the camera. We brought a small quantity of his ashes with us, and distributed them here and there, in his favorite places. There a pinch of him in each of the Hotchkiss guns.

To those of you served, my sincere thanks, and admiration!

Although the two look very much the same, in the one Pat posted the rifle barrel is pointed up more then the one I posted. Mine has an article about the person who did it and it was said to be one of a kind. Not knowing much about these things,was this merely a popular pose for WWI?

Jim

[bisley45]

I saw a few differences, and I don't really think they're from the same mold. I wonder, however, if they might both be influenced by some other image, a recruiting poster or the like.

[Jim Bewley Φ]

I saw a few differences, and I don't really think they're from the same mold. I wonder, however, if they might both be influenced by some other image, a recruiting poster or the like.

I agree they are not from the same mold. The poster might be a very good thought.

Jim

[Pat Holscher]

This one is in Emmitsburg, MD and I pass it several times a day. It is very much like the one you posted here, Pat.

Jim

The Emmitsburg memorial is identical to one I saw yesterday in Vernal Utah. Vernal has a very nicely kept up war memorial, featuring this statute, but commemorating veterans of various wars. In addition, a Cobra helicopter has been mounted on a frame commemorating the Vietnam War.

I'd submit a photo, but I forgot to take my camera.

[Jim Bewley Φ]

This one is in Emmitsburg, MD and I pass it several times a day. It is very much like the one you posted here, Pat.

Jim

The Emmitsburg memorial is identical to one I saw yesterday in Vernal Utah. Vernal has a very nicely kept up war memorial, featuring this statute, but commemorating veterans of various wars. In addition, a Cobra helicopter has been mounted on a frame commemorating the Vietnam War.

I'd submit a photo, but I forgot to take my camera.

Perhaps some did come from the same mold after all. Back in the mid 1900's the chance of someone seing the same statue in UT and MD were slim.

Jim

[Pat Holscher]

This one is in Emmitsburg, MD and I pass it several times a day. It is very much like the one you posted here, Pat.

Jim

The Emmitsburg memorial is identical to one I saw yesterday in Vernal Utah. Vernal has a very nicely kept up war memorial, featuring this statute, but commemorating veterans of various wars. In addition, a Cobra helicopter has been mounted on a frame commemorating the Vietnam War.

I'd submit a photo, but I forgot to take my camera.

Perhaps some did come from the same mold after all. Back in the mid 1900's the chance of someone seing the same statue in UT and MD were slim.

Jim

I'll take a photo of it next time I'm down there, which will be in a couple of weeks. It's definitely the same, as the ground obstructions are the same.

I have to say, I've been really impressed by the memorials in Vernal and in Evanston, Wyoming. These are small towns, not all that far apart really, that have really nice war memorials.

[Pat Holscher]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/09/world. ... index.html

Thanks to out to Peter Kilduff of the WWI list for the heads up on this.

On this topic, a couple of thoughts.

I travel around the region by auto a lot (okay, pickup truck) a lot and I've noticed that almost every town in the region has a WWI memorial. Quite a few have WWII memorials as well. The town I live in is the only town I can think of off hand that does not have a WWI memorial from the immediate post WWI era, although WWI has been included in a memorial to all regional vets, and a WWI vintage Trench Mortar does sit in Veterans Park. Anyway, on a national memorial, I sort of wonder if the Tomb of the Unknowns isn't really the original national WWI memorial, and I also wonder if the presence of a very large number of memorials in towns doesn't reflect the culture of the times better.

[sandgroper]

Park of the Australian Soldier, Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9yW3cv28vo

[Pat Holscher]

And here's the memorial in Douglas, Wyoming:

I was back down in Douglas today, and as I had a little extra time I was looking at a book near this memorial that lists all of these soldiers.

Of the World War One soldiers, I was surprised to note that at least 80% of them had died of the flu. One had died of meningitis. Some had died in action, of course, but most were flu victims. Died for their country none the less, but not what I had expected.

Of the WWII victims, I noted that one was a 115th Cav (Horse Mech) who had died in a barracks fire. Apparently the 115th had a barracks fire that killed four of its troopers. One was a soldier on CP duty who had rushed back in to the barracks to try to rescue those trapped inside.