Transporting by rail

[roy elderkin]

Pat

At one time the Kings Troop RHA used to move horses by rail to various shows in the UK. They also took part in one of the largest movement of horses and guns across the Atlantic, since the Second World War, when the Troop went to the Expo 67 in Montreal Canada. And later on we took the horses and guns to Berlin by air, to perform the musical drive in the Deutschland Halle, which brought about considerable interest from the Russian guard towers at Templhoff Airport.

Grey's used the railways a great deal, one of the features of the Inkomo Garrison where Grey's were based, was that we had our own siding which we shared with the Central Ammunition Depot, so loading horses on trains presented no problems, being able to load a whole Sqn from the platform. Before any one asks there are no photos officialy, showing horses being loaded, we had a blackout of any troop movements from the siding.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

I've merged this topic with the horses of the Bengal lancers thread, given that they're really related, and the turn of the conversation has gone towards rail transportation.

[Ordnanceguy]

An interesting thread that I had somehow missed earlier.

Any chance that these guys are National Guardsmen arriving for Border War duty? That sort of fits for me.

I am not a railroad expert, but find them very interesting. I noticed that one of the flat cars was from the Houston East & West Texas Railway Co. In trying to find out more about that RR I learned that its initials, HEWT, were said by customers to stand for "Hell Either Way Taken." It was taken over by the Southern Pacific in 1899.

Seasons greetings to all.

Charlie Flick

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

At one time the Kings Troop RHA used to move horses by rail to various shows in the UK. They also took part in one of the largest movement of horses and guns across the Atlantic, since the Second World War, when the Troop went to the Expo 67 in Montreal Canada. And later on we took the horses and guns to Berlin by air, to perform the musical drive in the Deutschland Halle, which brought about considerable interest from the Russian guard towers at Templhoff Airport.

Grey's used the railways a great deal, one of the features of the Inkomo Garrison where Grey's were based, was that we had our own siding which we shared with the Central Ammunition Depot, so loading horses on trains presented no problems, being able to load a whole Sqn from the platform. Before any one asks there are no photos officialy, showing horses being loaded, we had a blackout of any troop movements from the siding.

Roy

That's very interesting. I hadn't though of rail transportation in the context of the Greys. I likely should have as I know that rail transportation was a feature of the Boer War, so it would make sense that it was still a factor later.

Were trucks a more significant means of hauling horses in Rhodesia (for the army)?

[Pat Holscher]

Ludlow Colorado, 1914. I believe that this is an element of the 5th Cav.:



Photograph courtesy of the Denver Public Library, Western Heritage Collection.

[John Tremelling]

Thanks for collating the photos Pat, very interesting.

However, unless I change the whole concept of my (grandchildren's) railway from GWR, (God's Wonderful Railway) to US, I must search more dilligently. I have been researching Railway books, however, thanks to this thread I shall research Royal Artillery and Royal Logistics Corps, formerly Royal Army Service Corps back to Royal Wagon Train museums.

Thanks again,

John T

[roy elderkin]

Pat

The Rhodesian Army deployed mostly by road except for Grey's who used both means to deploy, when there was no railway siding close enough, to their patrol area. When I commanded A Sqn after the war we were deployed to Lupani in Matabeleland, by rail to the Gwaai River Siding. But it still required us to send vehicles in advance to set up a base camp, from the siding to the base camp was a day and half ride. The actual time spent by rail was two days, which ment stops at prearainged intervals to off load horses, water feed and exercise .

The longest time by rail was when Maj Bill Morrison commanding C Sqn, was ordered to deploy from Plumtree on the Botswana Border to Massa Kess in Mozambique. After Zimbabwe forces guarding the Beira pipe line and railway, deserted and abandoned their posts. On that occasion horses and vehicles travelled on the train, taking over three days to arrive in Mozambique. The logistical problems that arose were a knightmare, as no stops had been arrainged either by Zimbabwe Railways or Mozambique. But in true millitary fashion, they were overcome.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

John, there's more to follow. I still haven't located the photo of the 115th Cav I was looking for.

[Pat Holscher]

The longest time by rail was when Maj Bill Morrison commanding C Sqn, was ordered to deploy from Plumtree on the Botswana Border to Massa Kess in Mozambique. After Zimbabwe forces guarding the Beira pipe line and railway, deserted and abandoned their posts. On that occasion horses and vehicles travelled on the train, taking over three days to arrive in Mozambique. The logistical problems that arose were a knightmare, as no stops had been arrainged either by Zimbabwe Railways or Mozambique. But in true millitary fashion, they were overcome.

This is very interesting. Was this a deployment into Mozambique by train (and presumably with the permission or acquiescence of Mozambique)?

[roy elderkin]

Pat

This was with the full cooperation of the Mozambique Govt, who were still having trouble with their own dissidents in that area. And with the arrival of a full combat ready Sqn it was welcomed. The area was at a strategic crossroads, where the railway line and oil pipe line converge from Beira, it was also on the main road heading East to Cabora Bassa, hydro electric supply to Mozambique and South Africa. The pipe line and railway continue from here into Zimbabwe, which was a vital supply rout.

If you can understand that there is no direct link by train into Mozambique, from the Botswana Border at Plumtree. Therefore the Sqn with 200 men and 110 horses, were obliged to go firstly to Bulawayo, then onto Salisbury and then to the Zimbabwe border at Umtali before crossing to the main railhead at Villa Del La Manica and Massa Kess in Mozambique, a total distance of 700 miles on narrow guage rail, the train being pulled by out of date Garrat engines. At various points along the line you could get out and walk alongside the train.

But the main problem was that Zimbabwe Railways were having problems in the coordination of train movements with Mozambique, it was not a pleasant train ride for men or horses.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Some of us were discussing the 40 & 8 a while back. Here's an example of one at the American Legion in Cheyenne.

The name stands for 40 men, or 8 horses. This is a tiny rail car, so I'm surprised 8 horses is the rating, and I wouldn't want to be one of the 40 men.






Pat

Of some potential interest re this topic, An Army At Dawn, discusses these same rail cars being used in North Africa in WWII. I'd always thought that these were soley a WWI item, but apparently not. While I'd guess that the rail system in North Africa was not the most advanced in the world in 1943, I was suprised that these old cars were still around, and still marked 40 hommes, 8 chevaux.

With the apparently fairly extensive use of horses by the French, the old rail cars, and the exotic setting, the war in North Africa must have had a bit of a surreal atmosphere to it at first.

Pat

Boniface, in his 1903 book, indicates that an Americna boxcar could carry 16 or 17 horses.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

The caption reads:

Horses & men leave for maneuvers at Chester, SC. Fort Myer, VA 10/30/41. About to load onto special trains at Roslyn for trip to Chester.

[Pat Holscher]

Troop train figuring in WWI recruiting:

[Pat Holscher]

A civilian item, but an interesting one. A Drover's Way Car. That is, a railroad car for cattlemen to accompany cattle being shipped by rail. Only two remaining examples exist this being one of them, and this one being located in Hill City South Dakota.

[Pat Holscher]

http://digital.nls.uk/first-world-war-o ... d=74548510

[Pat Holscher]

[Pat Holscher]

7th Rgt Departing.

[Pat Holscher]

7th Rgt.

[Pat Holscher]

7th NY

[Pat Holscher]

7th NY