Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Yes thats reservists, they had their own horses at home, but most of them brought them to the Regt when it was being formed. Somewhere on the thread I think I made reference to it, they were designated C Sqn. And they were very active with Grey's, towards the latter end of the war their call up periods became more and more frequent, resulting in many leaving the country, manpower became a serious problem towards the end of 1980.

Roy

[wkambic]

Perhaps some kind soul could help educate an aging Naval Aviator with limited knowledge of ground combat. [:)]

In many of the photos kindly provided the men are carrying their long arms in hand, vice using a sling, boot, or scabbard. Given the very interesting comments in the "firing a long arm while mounted" thread this is interesting. If the long arm is going to be used while mounted in only very limited circumstances, why not develop and use a carry system that would free the trooper to use his sidearm as a primary weapon? Or permit the "quick" employment of the long arm?

I am aware of the limitations of the pistol but that seems to be one, logical way to go (if not the only logical way to go).

I am aware of some other threads in the past discussing the pros and cons of different long arm carry systems, but the Greys were in real combat and certainly had a motivation to use a system that would permit them to perform their mission while in the most economical way possible.

Am I being mislead by the camera's eye? Many of these photos appear to be posed or of actual operations. Would a different carry system for the long arm be used "on the march" where a threat level was low?



Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

[roy elderkin]

Bill

That is a fair comment, however the only way we would allow weapons to be carried was either in the hand or slung. All areas that Grey's operated were high risk areas, one did not know from one day to the next whether you would have a contact.

I think and thanks to Gary, these are not posed photos they were taken in operational areas, it was fourtunate that someone had a camera, not many photos came out of Grey's operationaly so these are rare indeed. As they were taken of national servicemen, they would have been their record. Most regulars and TA did not or even considered taking them, it was just another piece of equipment to carry.

Sidearms were not isuued to NS, only to regulars and some TA, not because we did not want to, but because we were short of them, and sometimes even ammunition was in short supply and had to be rationed. Either due to sanctions, or as a political move by South Africa.

But your comments are well received, and not without merit.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

On the carrying of rifles, I'd note that at least the Russians and Germans concluded, in WWI and WWII, that longarms should not be carried in a bucket. The reason was that if a horse threw a rider, and the rifle was in a bucket, he was disarmed.

In one of Gary's photos, a similar explanation is provided for carrying the sleeping bag on the person, which is interesting.

British troopers, I'd note, always carried their water bottle (canteen) on their person, and I've wondered if long experience in the desert brought about similar reasoning there. A man de-horsed without a rifle is in a bad way, but one lost in the desert without a canteen is dead. Or, to put it in the verse of J. W. Williams:

<i>The Man Without A Country;
Was a sorry mess of course;
But the Man With Too Much Country;
Is the Man Without A Horse.</i>

Pat

[Gary S]

Roy

We were trained well. I don't think we were ever "Gung Ho" At times boys will be boys, but things like bunching, and being prepared were driven into us, and instinctive. It had nothing to do with being caught carrying your rifle incorrectly, and being punished by carrying the radio for the whole next day, or even worse Cpl Kenny's pack drill!!!
Your impressive notes on our training was spot on, and I can't really add much to them.
I had never ridden before getting to Inkomo.The only advice I was given from my mother, was to treat the horses like our pet dachshunds!Not much of a difference?
Since leaving the unit I have only ridden twice.
Sorry can not confirm if that is Frazer.

Gary

[roy elderkin]

Gary

I wont apologize for being tough on all of you , the fact that you were trained by the very best bears testament that you are telling your story here.

As a matter of interest, whose ride were you with who was your riding instructor, I would have have liked to have remembered you but with so many men going through the system, I cant remember you all. Probably you will remember me from the riding school, when you were on the end of longe line.

Roy

[Gary S]

Roy

I have no problem on how we were treated or trained. The main thing was being treated fairly. If you did wrong, you were punished. If you did as trained, life was great!
I remember the riding school, with the rubber shavings, doing our dressage manoeuvres. How we never killed each other, still amazes me. Learning to jump horses in the enclosures outside the school. My horse would cantor to the jump, stop dead, then leap. This normally resulted in me hanging around it's neck, and you shaking your head.
My best memory of Roy, and I can get this story confirmed, is being on the longe line, two weeks into training at Inkomo, trotting in a circle, without stirrups. When Roy asked me to turn round in my saddle. I was so relieved not to have fallen off, I bounced down in the saddle, and my legs flapped into the horses side, which resulted in the horse bolting around the enclosure. So I'm facing the wrong way, my horse is breaking the sound barrier, my fellow concerned recruits are crying with laughter, Roy is shouting, and I mean shouting, at me to keep my legs still. I didn't care, self preservation took over, and I held on for dear life. When normality was restored, Roy was shaking his head, eyes rolling with disbelief. Me? I was happy to be alive!!! That is how a Grey Scout was born.
Roy you also attended our passing out party at a now forgotten Salisbury hotel. I had managed to get there very early, drank a tad too much, and ended the night wrapped in a horse blanket in the car park. the next morning you came to barracks and enquired about my state. That was our last contact.
I am trying to remember instructors etc.


Gary

[Joseph Sullivan]

Passing out, as in passing out, eh?

J

Joe

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Gary S
Roy

We were trained well. I don't think we were ever "Gung Ho" At times boys will be boys, but things like bunching, and being prepared were driven into us, and instinctive. It had nothing to do with being caught carrying your rifle incorrectly, and being punished by carrying the radio for the whole next day, or even worse Cpl Kenny's pack drill!!!
Your impressive notes on our training was spot on, and I can't really add much to them.
I had never ridden before getting to Inkomo.The only advice I was given from my mother, was to treat the horses like our pet dachshunds!Not much of a difference?
Since leaving the unit I have only ridden twice.
Sorry can not confirm if that is Frazer.

Gary

Gary, did you elect for the unit upon taking up your National Service, or did the Army simply assign you to it?

Training in any mounted unit would be arduous. But I can't imagine what it must have been like if you hadn't ridden before!

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Gary S
Roy

I have no problem on how we were treated or trained. The main thing was being treated fairly. If you did wrong, you were punished. If you did as trained, life was great!
I remember the riding school, with the rubber shavings, doing our dressage manoeuvres. How we never killed each other, still amazes me. Learning to jump horses in the enclosures outside the school. My horse would cantor to the jump, stop dead, then leap. This normally resulted in me hanging around it's neck, and you shaking your head.
My best memory of Roy, and I can get this story confirmed, is being on the longe line, two weeks into training at Inkomo, trotting in a circle, without stirrups. When Roy asked me to turn round in my saddle. I was so relieved not to have fallen off, I bounced down in the saddle, and my legs flapped into the horses side, which resulted in the horse bolting around the enclosure. So I'm facing the wrong way, my horse is breaking the sound barrier, my fellow concerned recruits are crying with laughter, Roy is shouting, and I mean shouting, at me to keep my legs still. I didn't care, self preservation took over, and I held on for dear life. When normality was restored, Roy was shaking his head, eyes rolling with disbelief. Me? I was happy to be alive!!! That is how a Grey Scout was born.
Roy you also attended our passing out party at a now forgotten Salisbury hotel. I had managed to get there very early, drank a tad too much, and ended the night wrapped in a horse blanket in the car park. the next morning you came to barracks and enquired about my state. That was our last contact.
I am trying to remember instructors etc.


Gary

Something really struck me in reading this recollection. What it is, is that the Grey's were not only a late standing mounted unit, but that they also maintained a really high degree of equestrian training.

I am sure this is also true of the few units in South America we're aware of. But it is remarkable. These units have, and were, preserving the core of horsemanship. They were not, as we know, hasty in any fashion. Here we see a wartime unit training to a high degree. They should have, of course. But in this day and age, it is remarkable how very well they did it.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
Courtesy of Eric and the Gazette des Armes



And this is a 1904 McCellan. Note the G3 rifle.

Pat

On the thread about using a rifle while mounted, Roy gives a description of his experiences doing that. Here, as Roy describes, this Grey is riding without aid of reins. As Roy also describes, this was not the combat norm.

Pat

[Gary S]

Pat

My first choice of unit was the Rhodesian SAS. I managed about five weeks before being RTU. At Llwelyn Barracks they wanted me to become an instructor, but being 18 years old, and naive, I believed I could make a difference at the sharp end. A friend encouraged me to have a go with the Grey's. I was accepted, he wasn't.
Basic training at the Grey's, without the horses, was normal as other units. Eg: Weapons/radio etc. Learning formations, tactics, and handling horses I thought would be terrifying, but really the training was so good, that when you went out into the field, it was easy to quickly adapt. Also never having ridden before, I had no bad habits to eradicate.
Looking back it amazes me how confident I became, and how soon. I'm not saying there was no pain, or mishaps! Plenty of laughs at other peoples expense, and many almost surreal experiences.
By the end of my service, I learnt how extremely intelligent,and how stupid horses can be. How they could feel the anxiety, or mood, of the stick or situation. How their respect of you lasted until you ran out of cubes!

Gary

[Ryan]

Roy or Gary,
Can you tell us what the horsemanship training program was. It sounds like it was very good and I would like use it to improve my seat.
Thanks,
Ryan

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Ryan
Roy or Gary,
Can you tell us what the horsemanship training program was. It sounds like it was very good and I would like use it to improve my seat.
Thanks,
Ryan

Ryan, I'd encourage, of course, Roy and Gary to elaborate in any way they might indulge us, but I thought I'd note that, starting on page 5 of this now 12 page thread Roy goes into some of the training program, and it's further discussed in various places further on as well.

Suffice to say, a very impressive aspect of the Grey's effort was the degree to which horsemanship was treated. It's easy to loose knowledge like that, in this less equestrian age, and therefore its all the more interesting to see how this unit continued to use first rate horsemanship during wartime.

Pat

[Ryan]

Pat, I was looking for the actual maneuvers that Roy discussed on page 5. Like the turning around in the saddle business on the lounge. I'm sure they covered a bunch in three weeks on the lounge. Any details they can remember would be greatly appreciated as is everything else they have shared. One other thing while I sit here broken from my last fall. Can anybody explain the cavalry check? My last crash was from the single rein stop gone bad and the cavalry check was mentioned as a better method but they could not tell me how to do it.
Thanks,
Ryan

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Ryan
<Pat, I was looking for the actual maneuvers that Roy discussed on page 5. Like the turning around in the saddle business on the lounge. I'm sure they covered a bunch in three weeks on the lounge. Any details they can remember would be greatly appreciated as is everything else they have shared. One other thing while I sit here broken from my last fall. Can anybody explain the cavalry check? My last crash was from the single rein stop gone bad and the cavalry check was mentioned as a better method but they could not tell me how to do it.
Thanks,
Ryan

Sounds good to me.

On this, I wonder if we might actually encourage the start of two new threads. This thread has the record for most popular SMH thread of all time, but I'd hate for training to get too lost in it, as that's an important subject. Perhaps something like "Riding instruction in the Grey's", or a similar thread, would be a good idea.

And on single rein stops, etc., that strikes me as a good separate topic too, so that we can hopefully avoid repeating the events that snuck up on you. Hope you are doing well, by the way.

Pat

Ryan, I posted a new thread on the one rein stop here:

topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7683

[roy elderkin]

Ryan

Thank you for your question, but before I try to answer it, I have some reluctance in trying to give advice this way. It is rather like a doctor diagnosing an illness without seeing the patient or knowing the symptons.
But as a starting point, I would suggest that you have someone look at you and see what you are doing either right or wrong, this will give a propper indication as to where problems are,and then a training program can be set up.

The best way to ensure a good seat, is of course the longe line, but this does mean that like the famous bird you go round in ever decreasing circles. Once again you will require some one with knowledge at the end of the longe line, who will keep correcting you and establishing a good seat, in all the paces walk,trot and canter, and will mean pain because this is done without stirrups, but it is the best to develop a proper seat.

All this work is done interspersed with gynnastic exercises, such as touching toes, lying back either standing stll or moving without removing the leg or the knee, on its own it means nothing but it is designed to give confidence and flexibility. But again it must be done, with some goal in mind.

I hope that this helps, if not and you need help please ask.

Roy

[Ryan]

Roy,

Thank you. Once I'm able to ride I'll get back to you in a separate thread.
Take care,
Ryan

[roy elderkin]

Ryan

something which has occured to me, and in relation to the other thread that of the "Cavalry" stop.You asked how to develop a good seat, one of the techniques of developing this and dealing with fractious horses, that of bringing about a controlled collected halt, I have used it to either train my own horses, for dressage or dealing with untrained horses.

The technique, requires that you sit deep in the saddle, your hands holding the reins at the correct height and distance from the body , the shoulder is then closed ie the shoulder blades are brought together very hard so that they are almost touching. Now the human anatomy will do a number of things, firstly the back braces and drives the seat down into the saddle, secondly the legs are automaticaly drawn into the sides of the horse, thirdly the arms are drawn back to engage the bit. It creates a very powerfull hold on the horse, and at the same time the seat of the rider now has a a good base of support, and is very secure.

This technique although appearing harsh to begin with, controls the horse making it round its back and bringing about a controled collected halt, as the training is refined the rider can now be more subtle with the movement, and by merely closing the shoulder but not completely when you started, the horses will understand what is required and will halt with the unseen aid which you should work towards, and forms forms part of good horsemanship.

I hope that you understand all of this, it is difficult to explain by this medium but it does work, but it should be used with great care.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Ryan
Sorry I should have concluded by saying that you should perfect the aid, and understand the movement whilst the horse is at halt, before trying it when the horse is moving. As I have said it is a very powerfull tool, so understand what you are doing before doing it in practice.

Roy