Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[roy elderkin]

Pat

The police were always trying to exert their position over the army, and did not either seek or or ask for advice, old habits die hard and with their mind set would not change.

I am always sceptical about policman dressing up like soldiers, it leads to a blurring of the functions of both, in that to the casual observer they would appear to be the same. This has happend on more than one occassion, when trying to obtain intel to be told, that the information had already been passed on to another group of soldiers, and find out that it was a police patrol.

But then Africa is littered with paramilitary police forces, I have always been old fashioned in the use of police in this manner, in that they are policeman first and not soldiers, but in times of conflict should come onder the military banner. I can count the number of times that army have been blamed for something that has occured, when it was the police and vis versa, this is my own view others may disagree.

The BSAPolice were very well equipped, and to be fair to them the PATU sticks [Police Anti Terrorists Unit] that they used were extreemly good, and highly trained, but at least they opperated in the guise of policeman.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat

The police were always trying to exert their position over the army, and did not either seek or or ask for advice, old habits die hard and with their mind set would not change.

I am always sceptical about policman dressing up like soldiers, it leads to a blurring of the functions of both, in that to the casual observer they would appear to be the same. This has happend on more than one occassion, when trying to obtain intel to be told, that the information had already been passed on to another group of soldiers, and find out that it was a police patrol.

But then Africa is littered with paramilitary police forces, I have always been old fashioned in the use of police in this manner, in that they are policeman first and not soldiers, but in times of conflict should come onder the military banner. I can count the number of times that army have been blamed for something that has occured, when it was the police and vis versa, this is my own view others may disagree.

The BSAPolice were very well equipped, and to be fair to them the PATU sticks [Police Anti Terrorists Unit] that they used were extreemly good, and highly trained, but at least they opperated in the guise of policeman.

Roy

I'd have to imagine that it would indeed create confusion, particularly as here the police appear to have very much been taking on a military role. To look at them, armed with FALs, and dressed in camouflage uniforms, there would have been no way at all to distinguish them, at least to the American eye, from soldiers.

The conflict of police v. military in police action like wars is a classic one. Even the US, where the lines are traditionally quite clearly drawn, has had trouble with this, although usually somewhat in the reverse. While not to dwell on it, we've most recently seen it post 9/11, when there was Congressional inquiry on why the FBI had not better coordinated with the CIA and other intelligence agencies. Seemingly missed in all that was that, post Vietnam War, the FBI and the CIA were supposed to basically not talk to each other, with some statutory prohibitions actually existing.

Here, of course, the problem would be a different one. But it would seem that in warfare, the army should predominate. As police have a different function, even militarized police will not fulfill that roll as well, and will be taking away from their other roles if they do.

It does seem that some regions of the world do see a lot of paramilitary police forces. I must confess some confusion on the British colonial police forces, as I'm not sure what all their function was.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, one thing I've wondered, and touched on a bit in another thread (the one about the U.S. QM unit) is to what degree those exposed to horses in the military developed the sort of interest in them that those of us who were predisposed to them have.

What did you find? You've seen that up close. Did troops who came in to the service with little knowledge of horses in the units you've been in pick up a love of them, or did they generally just find it to be another aspect of soldiering?

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Now there is a very interesting question for which I have no definitve answer, but what I do know that it can be split down into various categories.
The average soldier comeing into the unit unless they had previously been associated with horses, found it another aspect of soldiering and would probably never ride or be involved with horses again. There was a love for the horses but it did not go beyond the stage, that they would own or ride again. Some would continue and ride for pleasure, but nothing more, others went South to the SADF to do the same thing but they were in the minority.

Others would find that it was just to exspensive to own horses, and therefore just stopped and took up other interests. There was a small minority such as myself who continued on whilst others who owned their own animals would do so because of the great love of them. But again they would be in the minority, people like myself could not continue when we returned to UK because it was far too expensive.

I think your question is partly answered by the response or lack of it on this thread, by other former members of the Regt and it is even reflected in the Rhodesian Army Association where very little is mentioned about Grey's, and almost seems like a passing interest if none at all. The forum has probably had more said about Grey's than any other place.

But the answer I fear would be, that there is a small minority who continue to have an intertest others having left the Regt had no further interest in it or horses. Unlike your own country where there is a great tradition with horses, and an intense loyalty to former Regt's, this has not occured with Grey's.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat
Now there is a very interesting question for which I have no definitve answer, but what I do know that it can be split down into various categories.
The average soldier comeing into the unit unless they had previously been associated with horses, found it another aspect of soldiering and would probably never ride or be involved with horses again. There was a love for the horses but it did not go beyond the stage, that they would own or ride again. Some would continue and ride for pleasure, but nothing more, others went South to the SADF to do the same thing but they were in the minority.

Others would find that it was just to exspensive to own horses, and therefore just stopped and took up other interests. There was a small minority such as myself who continued on whilst others who owned their own animals would do so because of the great love of them. But again they would be in the minority, people like myself could not continue when we returned to UK because it was far too expensive.

I think your question is partly answered by the response or lack of it on this thread, by other former members of the Regt and it is even reflected in the Rhodesian Army Association where very little is mentioned about Grey's, and almost seems like a passing interest if none at all. The forum has probably had more said about Grey's than any other place.

But the answer I fear would be, that there is a small minority who continue to have an intertest others having left the Regt had no further interest in it or horses. Unlike your own country where there is a great tradition with horses, and an intense loyalty to former Regt's, this has not occured with Grey's.

Roy

Thanks Roy.

I've often wondered about that. It's easy to forget, for us, that most soldiers came to the horse as soldiers, and did not come to be soldiers due to horses. As with other things widely enjoyed by civilians, but used by soldiers, I'd guess that many of them would only enjoy them, if at all, while in the army.

I've known a few men who had been NG cavalrymen, and they didn't seem to retain an interest in riding after they got out, although at least one joined because of riding, in part. Likewise, the record for the reaction of enlisted men to units loosing their horses seems mixed.

Of course, it is still the case that quite a few men joined cavalry units because they wanted to ride. Presumably, they were the most likely to keep riding.

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Thank you for your observations, which is very correct. When I joined the BSAPolice it was part of the training that you were taught to ride, it was not a question as to whether you wanted to but had to, some stayed on in the depot to ride as part of the ceramonial troop, whilst the majority left the depot and in all probability would never ride a horse again or have any interest in them.

Others like myself a small minority, would go on after we had left the force to continue to ride in other disciplines, having caught the bug it was not easy to let go and take up other interests.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy,

I was looking on the net on an unrelated topic to this one, and ran across a link to this photo.

http://selousscouts.tripod.com/cir55.jpg

This photo is indicated as being of Grey's Scouts. Is it? It's the first one I've seen where a trooper is wearing shorts, which surprises me.

Also, the shorts wearing soldier appears to be carrying a Browning Auto 5 or a Remington Model 11 riot gun. This surprises me. I'm aware that riot configurations for this shotgun exist, but I've never seen a photo of one in the hands of a soldier in the field before. I knew there was some police use, and also some MP use in the U.S. Army, but I wasn't aware of any field use for it.

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Having not seen the photo, I am not sure if they are Grey's. On occasion soldiers did wear shorts, but not very often, and some were issued with shot guns but again not many, they were sometimes used if you were using them on cordon and searches, in villages. I used them whilst in Lapani when conducting these types of ops, for use in confined places. As they were less wealdly, than standard weapons when searching homes. They are a close quarter weapon, and would rather be a case as to what sort of ops they were conducting.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Something that my sons have reminded me of that they used to ride in shorts and bare feet. I have also been reminded that we had an Officer who used to ride in this way whilst in camp, for pleasure riding he used to grip the stirrup iron between his big toe and fourth toe this is how he rode on the farm, they are real farm boys, or real Boer farmers boys. So I suppose some Grey's did, if this how they used to ride, once they had left depot it was up the Sqn CO as to how they were dressed.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, I looked back and found the photo. I don't anything about the website it's on. Here's the photo:

http://selousscouts.tripod.com/cir55.jpg

In looking for this, I found some other photos up on the web. This is new. Hits on this website for people looking for "Grey's Scouts" are not unusual, as the unit is such a unique example of advanced recent military horse use. But information on the Grey's is hard to find (indeed, the topic crys out for a book). But net photos are now a little more common than they once were. Here's one site I've never hit on before. At least one of these photos I have seen before:

http://community.webshots.com/album/198949096ECTrll

Wikipedia now has an entry. I'll note that this one is interesting in that Roy, you're actually mentioned in it, although in the context of your enlisted rank. Not too surprisingly, the author or one of the editors of the page (you can hit the "history" item at the top of the page and it will give editing details) has linked in the Military Horse Society twice as hotlinks on the topic. We appear to be the only actually working hotlink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey's_Scouts

Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

S0me interesting shots on community, webshots, one photo is of a group of Grey's, this was the first time Grey's had been shown in public like this, it was taken at a medals parade in the RLI baracks, I was still a Colour Sergeant then, when I was in charge of the detachment.

On the other photo top right, depics a horse man standing on a hill, the soldiers name was Rob Early, and went on to write a book called "A Time of Madness" based on the conflict.

On the other site wikipedia, it has a number of incorrect statements, firstly I was not a riding instructor with the Troop, although I carried out a number of duties that would appear that way, and secondly I was not second in command that title belonged to Maj Beever Frazer-Kirk.

Roy

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Another peice of inacurate information on the same site, Grey's were not disbanded in 1980, but were alive and well when I left in 1984. I dont know where they get their information from.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Wikipedia is a real mixed bag in terms of its value. There's entries on nearly everything. Some are quite good. However, as the website depends solely on unreviewed posted content, there's no real assurance that anything on it is the slightest bit accurate. Accuracy depends completely on people coming in and correcting the errors, which sometimes are huge.

The site has some value, but it is beginning to be cited as a source for various things. That's a bit disturbing, as the articles on it depend completely on the original authors abilities, combined with the abilities of those who review what they read.

I've registered on Wikipedia and have corrected thing from time to time that were so irritatingly inaccurate that I couldn't stand it.

In looking at this article, it appears to have been posted for the very first time on April 5, 2007, and was last edited on April 17, 2007.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

We are really fortunate here to have a second Grey's veteran, Gary Snelling, contribute some photographs of his service in the unit. Here's the first:



I'm also hopeful that Gary will register here and contribute to this and other threads. We've had the registration temporarily down for some adjustments, which I hope won't inconvenience him, as I certainly hope to learn more details of this late mounted unit and the experiences of its men.

On this photograph, note that the weapon depicted is the heavy barreled version of the FAL, which was a lmg. The FAL rifle is a heavy weapon, I can't imagine how awkward it would have been to carry this light machinegun, which was heavier yet. The magazine, as you can tell from this photo, was a 30 round version, rather than the 20 round rifle norm, and the barrel was quite a bit stouter.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
We are really fortunate here to have a second Grey's veteran, Gary Snelling, contribute some photographs of his service in the unit. Here's the first:



I'm also hopeful that Gary will register here and contribute to this and other threads. We've had the registration temporarily down for some adjustments, which I hope won't inconvenience him, as I certainly hope to learn more details of this late mounted unit and the experiences of its men.

On this photograph, note that the weapon depicted is the heavy barreled version of the FAL, which was a lmg. The FAL rifle is a heavy weapon, I can't imagine how awkward it would have been to carry this light machinegun, which was heavier yet. The magazine, as you can tell from this photo, was a 30 round version, rather than the 20 round rifle norm, and the barrel was quite a bit stouter.

Pat

Gary provides the following information on this very interesting photograph:

On the first photo which you posted. I must mention that on my back was our sticks only method of communication with HQ. The TR48 radio. . . . This weighed 24lbs, and after a while it became hard work, especially if we were dismounting continually. Or if the stick started cantoring. The narrow straps dug into your shoulders, while the radio bounced against your back The radio was shared amongst the stick, and you carried it for half a day, or a full day as punishment!

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Gary Snelling has graciously provided these very intereting photographs, showing himself, as a Grey's Scout, before and after the application of face camouflage:





Anyone who has done some service remembers face paint! What an excellent example.

Note again the heavy barreled FAL.

Note also the iron stirrup on the Rhodesian McClellan clearly visible here.

What is the breed of this particular horse?

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

More interesting photos and text courtesy of Gary Snelling:

Text by Gary Snelling
I have sent this picture in as it shows the saddle blanket and foam pad better. Also attached to my saddle at the back I would have had my waterproof poncho, wrapped inside of my combat jacket. This must have winter.

Roy, or our instructors, would go crazy if they saw the rifle positioned in this manner, or being in the open. On this occasion we were crossing a river and a couple of horses got into trouble by sinking into the sand. When this photo was taken the trouble was over, no horses lost, and I was about to cross.

Text by Gary Snelling
This picture below shows how we carried our sleeping bags on our webbing, and not attached to the horse. Lose your horse lose your bed! Also in the webbing we normally carried a days rations. You can see the standard issue boots that are pictured earlier on the Forum.
Again this picture was taken in a secure environment, as there is no way you would get so many horses or men together. in fact I'm taking the picture, my horse, with the white patch, was about to drink. The white patch was a cream to get rid of ringworm.

This last photo also gives us some excellent photos of the Rhodesian McClellan in use. Note the rigging, and the very close resemblance to the M1904 McClellan. An excellent photo.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Photos and text courtesy of Gary Snelling:

Text by Gary Snelling
Doesn't it look so easy to load these creatures? If one didn't want to go in? Fun was had by all!!!

Text by Gary Snelling
Regrouping outside Victoria Falls on the Bulawayo road. Off to a new operational area.

Text by Gary Snelling
Trooper Keith Robb giving a poor salute!!

Good example of soldier humor in that last one.

These are some really interesting examples of horse transportation. I may also post these to the horse transportation thread.


Pat

[roy elderkin]

Pat

The horses name was Madonna and a Boerperd.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy,

Wow, I'm impressed that you recognize the horse by name!

Is that a typical conformation for a Boerpard?

A question that occurs to me, but I've never thought to ask before, is if you had mares and geldings in the Grey's, and did you have them in the same basic unit?

Also, what's the long sideboards on those trucks? Indeed, what the heck are those trucks?

Pat