whitman saddle

[Larry Emrick]

I have just this morning discovered that my next-door neighbour has a whitman saddle which I now have beside me so I can describe it in full. I promised her I would try to find out some information for her. It is stamped in several places including on the stirrup hoods WHITMAN surrounded by The Mehlbach Saddle Co. New York City. It has a leather covered steel horn with a wooden cap on the top of the horn which can be seen through the only stitching that is loose. It has a very high cantle and the distance from the base of the horn to the top of the cantle is 15 inches. It has two nickle staples and a nickel saddle bag stud behind the cantle. For rigging it has y straps that attach to a round 2 and one half inch nickled loop. Both sweatflaps to which the bottom of the y-staps are sewen are stamped as above.The stirrup leathers appear original and both stirrup hoods are intact . I would say the stirrups are wood but they are both leather covered. They also have a 2 and one-quarter inch wide piece of leather attached from the bottom of the stirrup to the front of the hood. The tree is leather covered and is divided down the middle as per a McClellan but the seat is as seen from above is solid. In several places the is a small stamp less than a quarter of an inc in diameter that looks like a 8-spoked wheel. I cannot fi9nd any other military-type stamps. It is in fabulous condition although in need of oiling. The seat and hoods and flaps have that embossed pig-skin texture . The girth is one pice of leather one inch wide. Any help in identifying it as to age an application would been appreciated. Thanks. Larry

[Larry Emrick]

Further discussion with my neighbour's husband, who is a race-horse trainer, reveals that he bought it for $75 about 25 years ago from "an old guy at the race track" . The "old guy" said it was made early in the last centurty for a hunter who used it on hunting trips 'out west' . Although beautifully made it is a light saddle, more like an English or UP saddle with a horn, and is most certainly civilian . So, does the Whitman stamp have any sign ificance or is it merely the the manufactuerer's nod to history, or would the saddle have been made under licence? Sorry for stepping outside the traces of the Military Horse with what is probably a civilian query but if anyone has an idea on age I will pass it along. thanks, larry.

[Pat Holscher]

Larry, do you have a photo of this by any chance?

Pat

[Larry Emrick]

HI, PAT: I was hoping you would check in on this but the more I think about it I suspect it's just a nice old civilian saddle. I did later what I should have done in the first place and that was to check the Net for the name of the manufacturer and sure enough there were several hits including one for an advertising brochure in the early 1900s for Whitman saddles made by that New York company. I also see that there are modern-day Whitmans. I can photograph it if you want to see it but doubt that it's anything very special . Let me know over the weekend. I am about to sign off for the night. Cheers, Larry

[Pat Holscher]

HI, PAT: I was hoping you would check in on this but the more I think about it I suspect it's just a nice old civilian saddle. I did later what I should have done in the first place and that was to check the Net for the name of the manufacturer and sure enough there were several hits including one for an advertising brochure in the early 1900s for Whitman saddles made by that New York company. I also see that there are modern-day Whitmans. I can photograph it if you want to see it but doubt that it's anything very special . Let me know over the weekend. I am about to sign off for the night. Cheers, Larry

Larry, I'm not an expert on Whitmans by any means, and there are several posters here who know a great deal more about them than I do. They are interesting though.

As I'm sure you know, Whitmans were experimented with after the Civil War by the Army in both a horned and non-horned version. They were a saddle which was utilized by officers for a long time, although I believe in the non-horned version (it seems to me that at least as a military saddle the horned variant wasn't around long, but I could be wrong). Indeed I think the use of them by officers continued on to around World War One.

The Whitman was also a popular with police forces and is probably still in use by some. I believe there were also civilian sales.

I've often wondered what they are like to ride. I've never had the occasion to ride one obviously, and I'd be curious to hear from anybody who has.



Pat

[G.KUSH.UE]

Hello Larry,

I know very little about the Mehlbach Saddle Co. of NYC but as I understand it they purchased the manufacturing rights to the Whitman saddle, tack, etc. around the turn-of-the-century and offered a wide selection of items for sale till at least the 1930's. R. Stephen Dorsey (Collectors Library, Eugene, Oregon) has reprinted a number of the company's catalogs, I believe fom the 1920's, and has them for sale at a very reasonable price. I have one of his catalogs here and although I'm always meaning to order copies of the Mehlbach catalogs I keep forgetting. By the way, the Mounted Police adopted the Whitman cavalry bit in the early 1880's and used it well into the 20's. Here in Alberta you can still pick them up dirt cheap because all the self-appointed Mountie experts and reenactors wouldn't know a Whitman if one fell on their head.

Sounds like your neighbour has a pretty nice little saddle there.

Warmest regards,

George

[Joseph Sullivan]

This whole Whitman business is most interesting. US Cavalry Whitmans are pretty scarce, and even more scarce are the bridles. I have owned a civvie Whitman in the past, and presently own two Whitman bridles, neither of which are US military. One has split tapered reins, and a Whitman shaped bit attached by the rings, and the other is a halter bridle -- unit marked, but not military. I assume it is police of some kind but haven't a clue. I also have a clip-on Whitman bit of the military pattern, but not US marked -- so who knows?

The point of all this is that Whitmans are one of the less well known equipment sets of the whole lot. I would be delighted to see more on them from any informed person, because informed I ain't.

Joe

[Pat Holscher]

Larry,

Should you decide to take a photo of the saddle, go ahead and send it to me. I'd be curious to look at it.

While I'm quite uniformed on this saddle, I thought I'd add that it is my general preception, although I could be incorrect, that the later police variants of this saddle appear to be somewhat different in form from the earlier military versions. Is that correct?

George, you mention RCMP use of the bit (for a darned long time). Did the RCMP experiment with any other of the Whitman equipments?

While I don't know why, the Whitman saddle has always looked like an interesting one to me. It is interesting to note that it was an item approved, if I understand it correctly, for use by officers in an era when mounted officers were required to purchase a saddle and quite a few bought them. Because of that you have to suspect there was something about them that caused officers to favor them, or was it just because they were simply different from the issue McClellan?

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Larry,

Should you decide to take a photo of the saddle, go ahead and send it to me. I'd be curious to look at it.

While I'm quite uniformed on this saddle, I thought I'd add that it is my general preception, although I could be incorrect, that the later police variants of this saddle appear to be somewhat different in form from the earlier military versions. Is that correct?

George, you mention RCMP use of the bit (for a darned long time). Did the RCMP experiment with any other of the Whitman equipments?

While I don't know why, the Whitman saddle has always looked like an interesting one to me. It is interesting to note that it was an item approved, if I understand it correctly, for use by officers in an era when mounted officers were required to purchase a saddle and quite a few bought them. Because of that you have to suspect there was something about them that caused officers to favor them, or was it just because they were simply different from the issue McClellan?

Pat

[G.KUSH.UE]

Pat,

The Mounties started experimenting with a military-style replacement for the UP in the mid-1870's, even their choice of the California stock saddle was meant to be just a stop-gap measure (although that's not how it played out), and most of the Force's commissioned officers and senior NCO's ever reconciled themselves to the "cowboy look." Many of the officers & NCO's actually refused to accept stock saddles and continued to use UP and private purchase items during their careers. I know that contradicts the popular myth, but it's TRUE. Also, variations of the UP were used for equestion training from 1874 right up to the 1940's. Recruits were never taught horsemanship on stock saddles, NEVER EVER. Not in the entire history of the Mounted Police.

Most of the Force's early records, perhaps 90%, were destroyed when the offices of the Force comptroller were destroyed by fire early in the 20th century, so we don't have a true record of all that transpired concerning the quest for a new military-style saddle, tack, etc. We have a photographic record but even that's not complete. We know that beginning in 1878 the Force purchased at least two McClellans - one with a rawhide seat, the other black leather - but we have know idea who tested them or if any more were ever purchased, the records just aren't there. We don't even know if the results of any field testing were positive or negative. About 1880, a small quanity of Whitman saddles were purchased along with the corresponding tack. We don't know how many Whitmans there were or where they were tested BUT, both the Whitman bridle and bit were a big hit and around 1883 they became the standard Force issue, and were still in use 30 years later. As in the American military, Mounted Police COMMISSIONED officers were required to furnish their own horses and tack and several officers are known to have used the Whitman exclusively. Other's, including the famous Sam Steele, used the McClellan. In fact, during the Great War Steele routinely used an '04 McClellan. There is also at least one 1890 era photo of Steele using a custom-built stock saddle, but it's not the adopted California pattern. Like most of the officers he undoubtably owned a variety of saddles.

The single largest supplier of saddles & tack to the North-West Mounted Police during the 1870's & 1880's was Joseph Sullivan of Fort Benton, Montana. He even received a special citation from the Commissioner of the Force. That said, you won't find a single reference to Sullivan in any of the published material on the history of the Force and it's horse equipments. That's because most of the records simply no longer exist.

For example, there are couple of surviving documents that indicate the Mounties purchased 30 Smith-Wesson "Russian" revolvers in the mid-1870's, yet only one publication mentions this fact and only in brief. In reality, the Mounted Police purchased enough Smith & Wessons to equip several troops, and they were a very popular item. The boys liked to use them to shoot buffalo while riding at full gallop. The Mounties also experimented with Colt SA. That said, neither the Colt or the Smith & Wesson are included among the list of regulation Force weapons. The Colt "Frontier" Model 1878 was also purchased and it was so popular with the officers, it was adopted by Strathcona's Horse for the South African War. Once again, the official records no longer exist or at best are only fragmentary. But try to tell that to the so-called experts.

The same can be said for long-arms. The issue Snider-Enfield carbines were not much better than junk and before the Mounties officially adopted the Model '76 Winchester, they acquired quite a supply of Henry's and Winchester '73's. The weapons were issued for hunting and patrol duty. The NCO's and other ranks were also allowed to carry private arms, as the Government issue British weapons were hopeless.

So here's what I'm saying. With "special attention" to reenactors. Considering the INDISPUTABLE fact that 90% of the Force's original archives were destroyed almost a century ago, it's virtually impossible to say with absolute certainty what equipments were or were not used by the Mounties prior to 1900.

Regards,

Pat


PS. I get a real charge out of the current crop of historical artists who show US military officers, particularly in the post-Civil War era, using regulation saddles and tack when all of the physical evidence points to just the opposite. Officers used the best equipment they could afford and the Whitman was extremely popular because by all accounts it was a very pleasant saddle to ride. It's also a much prettier saddle to look at, and the officers liked good-looking military saddles. Because officers purchased their own horses they also took great care in providing them with good tack, seldom using regulation bits, headstalls, saddle-bags, blankets, etc. I've even seen custom-made canteens. Senior NCO's were also allowed considerable latitude, but ONLY in the field.

[Larry Emrick]

Gentlemen: Thanks for your interest in the Whitman. Pat, I will get a photo of it and send it along to you, as well as a shot of my aging yet faithful Max with his UP, and you can post them on the site if you wish . It may take a bit of time since I have the UP shots but not the Whitman. George: Thanks as always for your interesting and informative responses and I did notice the Whitman brochures. Cheers, Larry

[Pat Holscher]

George, thanks for your detailed, and very interesting reply.

The single largest supplier of saddles & tack to the North-West Mounted Police during the 1870's & 1880's was Joseph Sullivan of Fort Benton, Montana.

Hmmm, . . .it seems I've heard of an individual by that name somewhere before. . .<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Bump.