Eagle rosettes

[Rick Throckmorton]

Folks,
I recently purchased a M1909 bridle with the early thin style eagle rosettes thinking it is an early production bridle of that model. I noticed that one of the rosettes was built with the retaining loop on back attached not on the center line of the rosette but off center to allow for there to be a near and off side rosette. This particular one was for the near side. I just received two more thin type (early) eagle rosettes and upon examining them, I find that they both are built with the attaching loop right on the center line, making them universal as opposed to near side/off side. This prompted me to look at the rest of the eagle rosettes in my collection. I find that all the thick style eagle rosettes (which I think are the later style WW1 and later contract products and the style which was ultimately decided upon) are constructed in the near side/off side pairs. My M1902 bridle with the early thin eagle rosettes has both rosettes with the centered loop. Only the rosette on the M1909 bridle has the single thin style rosette with the off center loop. Perhaps this particular rosette is a transition item made when the near side /off side pairs were being produced while still the thin rosette for enlisted men was in use.
Has anyone else examined their eagle rosettes? Have you noticed this feature? Are your thin rosettes the type with the centered loop or the off center loop? Are your thick eagle rosettes the type with the off center loop? Has anyone seen a thick one with the centered type loop?
Just curious.
Rick Throckmorton

[Light Dragoon]

Rick, the only ones I have handled (as far as I can recall) are the heavier ones, and all of them, to the best of my memory, have the off-set loops as you describe. I have never seen any of them centrally mounted.

Gordon

"After God, we owe our Victory to our Horses"

Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada, 1543

[Joseph Sullivan]

Rick:

I have never seen the thin ones withthe offset loop, but if memory serves, the original M1909 specifications called for thin rosettes for EM, and bronzed FLAT thick ones for the officers. In later use, this distinction seems to have been discarded. I suspect you hae a very scarce pair of early production M1909 EM rosettes.

By the way, I also believe that in original usage, the heavy CONVEX offset eagle rosettes were for artillery harness bridles. COuvi might know for sure, but the curator at the RIA museum told me that was the case the harness on the gun rig there has them.

I realize that many M1914 individual bridles have flat ones, and that convex ones turn up on M1909s. There are two possible reasons: a) they got recycled indiscriminately at the depots as no one cared that much and they had big post-war supplies -- ESPECIALLY of artillery items; b) most of the items we see are Frankensteined together by later collector owners.

Joe

[George Clark]

Rick, The thin stamped set on my M1902 bridle are centered, and the thick cast set on my M1909 bridle are offset. George.

[drking71]

Rick:
I have five of the thin rosettes, four of which have the loop centered. The fifth is off-set for the right or off-side of the bridle. Years ago I picked up one just like it for a quarter at a flea market and later sent it to Ralph Woodworth, a retired army saddler. He wrote me back to tell me he had never seen a thin rosette like that. His comment at the time was that he suspected that it was from a time when the U.S. Army was strapped for money and was trying to cut corners. For what it's worth, I suspect it is a transitional piece. Ironically, not long ago a pair of thin rosettes was offered on Ebay - one with a center loop and one off-set.

Dave King

David R. King

[Rick Throckmorton]

Yes, I knew the thin rosettes were the earlier ones found on the M1902 bridle and the early M1909's. Joe is correct in that the early descriptions have the thin rosettes on the enlisted men's bridles and the thicker rosettes are to be used on the officers' equipments (See the Description of Horse Equipments for Officers and Enlisted Men, May 1905/revised July 1908). I had never noticed that the thin ones are found with both centered and off set loops. As all the thick ones seem to have the off set loops, I think the centered loops are found on the very early thin rosettes and the off set loops are found on the later, "transition period" (if you will) thin rosettes. It appears that sometime in the manufacturing period of the M1909 bridle, this change in placement of the position of the attachment loops occured, then even later, the thin rosettes were dropped altogether for the thick ones, probably during the WW1 contracting period for simplicity of manufacture.
Thanks for everyone's input. This detail is just another nuance that makes this study interesting and once more shows the value of this forum.
Best regards,
Rick Throckmorton

[Joseph Sullivan]

You know, it is odd that no one seems to have seen any thick ones with centered loops. If the early '09s were centered, it would be reasonable to expect to see both. SO, another possibility is that the offset thins like yours are true M1909 production, and all the centered thins are from the old supplies of M1902s. Just as black leather was used until stores were depleted, centered thins might also have been.

Joe

[Rick Throckmorton]

That may well be true. Then on the other hand, using the same reasoning, the thick ones were used on the M1902 Bridles "Officer Pattern"...why haven't we seen any thick ones with the centered loops? They were in use before the M1909's were produced. This could be another case of specifications being published but not practised as we so often see in the late Indian War era. I suspect that the only the thin rosettes were used with the early M1902 bridles and the publication we get the specs in is dated 1908. Has anyone seen an earlier specification for the M1902 Bridle. If so, does it list the thicker rosettes for the officer's bridle?
Rick

[Joseph Sullivan]

Also true.

Joe

[Pat Holscher]

Another interesting rosette thread.

Pat

[John Fitzgerald]

The rosettes with the centered loop don't look right on the M1909 headstall. You have the crown piece separating into the 3/4" cheek piece billet and the 5/8" throat latch billet. With a centered loop, the rosette is out of alignment with the crown piece. Looks bad.

John

"A good horse rides best for a good horseman"

[Joseph Sullivan]

John:

You are right. That is why it appears that the centered ones are for the earlier bridle only.

[tmarsh]

Is there any documentation why the eagle rossettes came into being over the U.S. Type? Was it just a design new model change or was there a reason for it? Is not the eagle symbol of our nation and not the Army? Does anybodey know when the eagle symbol came into being? Thanks Tom

[Joseph Sullivan]

Tom:

There were any number of eagle motif buttons, plates and rosettes in the 18th and early 19th century. With buttons and belt plates, they never went away. However with cavalry rosettes there were three phases after 1859. The first was to have none at all, and just have the US bosses on the bit. Then came the "bullseye" rosette -- actually a round shield with a stud in the center formed from the rivet head. Finally, around 1902 or thereabouts came the change to the Great Seal. It is unclear to me EXACTLY when the changeover happened, because there are bridles floating around that are russet, yet have the Bullseye. They appear to be '02s that are using up the old supply of rosettes, but I can't be sure. In any event, from then on the cavalry used the Great Seal on riding bridles. The US rosette was never to my knowledge, on a cavalry riding bridle. It was on driving bridles.

There was also a later training bridle, M or 1920 or so, that had NO rosette.

Having said all that, I must admit that there are lots of varient bridles and rosettes floating around. There is no reliable scholarship on the subject. It is an interesting, though darkly lit, topic.

Joe

[slim]

One day a friend showed me a work horse bridle that I do not believe to be military. It had one US rosette that was steel. I found that interesting as I was only aware of bronze or brass examples. Slim.

[Pat Holscher]

Bump.

[ob98]

I have the impression that the 1902 rosettes had 8 tail feathers and the 1909's had 10 tail feathers. Is that an accurate dating feature or just a difference in manufacturers?