Boer War Picture

[Tom Muller]

Roy,

I haven't been much in the South of SWA or the Karoo, but the thing I'm missing most is rocks, all over! If it was SWA it could be further to the east towards the Kalahari desert.

Can anybody enlarge the white buildings in the back? They could be, well to me they do actually, look like German colonial buildings, but I can't make out for sure. But this might help us.

I agree with Roy, this horse has not seen any extended service recently and the same seems to apply to the clean shaven guy. And yes look at those feet, somebody missed out on them!

Tom

[Pat Holscher]

I think the cap may be fooling us a bit as the appearance is so beyond our expectations. I'm fairly convinced it's a Broderick Cap, which looks very much like a German cap, and might even be based on it. A lot of the descriptions of the Broderick cap, and the one depiction of it I was able to find, match what we're seeing here. References frequently note that it looked a lot like the German cap of the period. Otherwise, this uniform is very British in appearance, as is the tack and certainly the arm. I wouldn't expect to see a German trooper with the reversed chevron or Long Lee.

I'd guess that we're looking at a British soldier, circa 1902-1910, or so. Not a wartime trooper, but maybe a post war soldier in Africa somewhere. Or perhaps, as Joe has suggested in China. It would be nice to get an enlargement on the buildings, which might be helpful. It's not impossible that we might be looking at a photo from North Africa somewhere.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

I have no doubt that he is a British Soldier, but Boer War I am afraid a little sceptical.

My interest is his surroundings.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

I have no doubt that he is a British Soldier, but Boer War I am afraid a little sceptical.

My interest is his surroundings.

I agree, and understood that to be what you were saying.

If the Broderick cap was adopted in 02, we wouldn't really expect it to show up in the field for a year or two. And I'm not sure we'd ever really expect to be worn by a soldier in the field in southern Africa. By this point in the war, if we were running into mounted troopers, I'd expect them to be otherwise attired, and appearing.

If this is a Boer War soldier, he's a late Boer War soldier, and probably hasn't ventured far from his post. The horse doesn't look to have been in the field recently either.

[Joseph Sullivan]

Could he be in Egypt?

[John M Φ]

Yes..interesting photo...and, from whats been said I agree the hat appears to be a Broderick.
The equipment appears to be all British.
Minor observations:-
I note only single reins in use!
The pommel wallets appear standard..except the flap does look a bit different.
The head rope appears to be troopers pattern...but attached by a short strap rather than the rope through the ring.Officers pattern headropes are attached by a strap but the strap is sewn o to the rope.

[roy elderkin]

Single reins were often used, double reins ceramonial and attached to the d bars on bits. The wallets are the type used by the BSAPolice, and halter ropes could be attached by leather straps to the jowl peice by either troopers or officers.

Roy

[Joe Sweeney]

This photo shows a man wearing the "Brodrick cap" or officially known as either the "Cap, Forage, New Pattern" or the "Cap, Forage, Universal" depending on date.

This is post Boer War.

Nothing to do with RMLI. These were universal issue to the Army from ~1902 until 1905 and many continued to be worn into 1907-1908 by Army units.

In order to tell unit you would have scan the cap badge and shoulder titles.

The light colored patch (on the cap behind the cap badge) could be any unit wearing white or yellow patches.

He also is wearing the Universal KD Frock, SD Pantaloons (again post Boer War) and IAW all mounted troops puttees wrapped from knee to foot (kept the puttees from unwrapping.)

My guess is that this is circa 1903 to 1906/7.

The attached photo is to a 1903 made and issued Broderick cap for the Royal Artillery.



Joe Sweeney

[rayg]

Now seeing that photo I can probably understand where the US got their idea for the 1912 model Cavalry equipment that had a leather "bucket" for placing the butt of the 1903 rifle in while mounted. The only difference is the US system added a ring "donut" on the belt further secure the rifle. The US system wasnt very popular and I believe 1917 was the latest date the belts were manufactured. Ray

[JV Puleo]

I have been presuming all along that this is was almost certainly a picture of a mounted infantryman rather than a full-time mounted soldier, albeit only because he is armed with the long Lee rifle and a carbine version for mounted service also existed. The SMLE was adopted with the same logic as the 1903 Springfield, that a "short" rifle could serve equally well for mounted and dismounted service.
Were British carbines carried with this equipment or was it developed to go with the SMLE? Thankfully, most of target audience for the book the picture is going in aren't interested in anything but the rifle. On the other hand, I'm actually more interested in the context.

I have maxed out the abilities of my scanner, a very good one, trying to get a good view of the shoulder flash, cap badge and the buildings. I almost have them. Almost, but not good enough. The cap badge is nearly in profile so its practically impossible to make out the shapes and the shoulder flash is almost the same color as the cloth its attached to. The buildings in the background, indistinct as they are, look to be 1 and 2 story, brick or whitened stucco with flat roofs and rectangular windows. They do look like I would expect to see in Egypt so Joe's question may be spot on. I should probably try to find out what units were in Egypt ca 1902-1910 and if any of them raised a temporary mounted unit.

Joe P.

[Pat Holscher]

This photo shows a man wearing the "Brodrick cap" or officially known as either the "Cap, Forage, New Pattern" or the "Cap, Forage, Universal" depending on date.

This is post Boer War.

Nothing to do with RMLI. These were universal issue to the Army from ~1902 until 1905 and many continued to be worn into 1907-1908 by Army units.

In order to tell unit you would have scan the cap badge and shoulder titles.

The light colored patch (on the cap behind the cap badge) could be any unit wearing white or yellow patches.

He also is wearing the Universal KD Frock, SD Pantaloons (again post Boer War) and IAW all mounted troops puttees wrapped from foot to knee (kept the puttees from unwrapping.)

My guess is that this is circa 1903 to 1906/7.

The attached photo is to a 1903 made and issued Broderick cap for the Royal Artillery.



Joe Sweeney

Great photo Joe, thanks!

The resemblance to the WWI type German cap is remarkable.

[Pat Holscher]

I have been presuming all along that this is was almost certainly a picture of a mounted infantryman rather than a full-time mounted soldier, albeit only because he is armed with the long Lee rifle and a carbine version for mounted service also existed. The SMLE was adopted with the same logic as the 1903 Springfield, that a "short" rifle could serve equally well for mounted and dismounted service.

Weren't the carbines withdrawn from all branches after the early stages of the Boer War? I'm under the impression that cavalrymen carried the rifle in the Boer War, except in the war's very early stages.

If that's correct, did that practice just continue on until the SMLE was issued?

[JV Puleo]

I'd never heard that, which is hardly surprising as it isn't something I've ever looked into. If that is the case I wouldn't expect they were re-issued after the war. I do remember reading once that British Dragoon Regiments were still being issued bayonets right through the period even though there was no provision for them on the carbine. It was a throwback to the 18th century when Dragoons really were mounted infantry.
Joe P

[Pat Holscher]

I'd never heard that, which is hardly surprising as it isn't something I've ever looked into. If that is the case I wouldn't expect they were re-issued after the war. I do remember reading once that British Dragoon Regiments were still being issued bayonets right through the period even though there was no provision for them on the carbine. It was a throwback to the 18th century when Dragoons really were mounted infantry.
Joe P

I'm not sure if I have the appropriate volume of A History Of The British Cavalry that pertains to that. If somebody does, they might look it up.

I may have read that in the book "The Boer War". My recollection is that the carbine proved to be inadequate on the Velt, and the rifle was issued to replace it. I'm under the impression that the carbines were never reissued, and that the whole experience gave a push to the adoption of the short rifle.

Indeed, for a time after the Boer War, and running right up to World War One, British cavalry showed a lot of Boer War influence. According to Anglesey they went into WWI with saddle packs that were basically the same as for Africa. They retained a rifle, albeit the new SMLE. Some cavalry weapons, like lances, reappeared but only shortly before WWI.

The thing I don't know, and hopefully one of the UP tack experts can illuminate for us, is when these buckets appeared. I wonder if this is a a soldier equipped with tack contemplating the SMLE, and is simply using it with the long Lee, or if the bucket had already appeared by that time.

[Pat Holscher]

A message from a participant on the Great War Forum:

Don't know what the name of the hat is , but it was worn by Either the Bedfordshire of Hertfordshire regiment.
The Beds were in S.Africa.
The white on the hat, I have not seen before, and the badge does not look like the Beds.Hats http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/herts ... gton01.JPG
The rounded shoulder titles are as worn by the Beds "Bedford".shoulder title http://www.ww1photos.com/Archive_Soldie ... giment.jpg

[Pat Holscher]

Bumped up due to related thread.

[hbtoday98]

THE NEW ZEALANDER USED THIS RILFE BUCKET IN THE BOER WAR AS DID THE CANADIAN'S{PHOTO CANADIAN ANGLO-BOER WAR MUSEUM}THEY STRAP THE RIFLE TO THE RIGHT ARM ,NZ TROOPS RIGHT HAND ON FORE WOOD,THIS PHOTO SHORT SLING FROM THE FORE WOOD ROUND THE NECK.NZ WERE USING THE 1888 BAYONET 16.5 INCHES ON MARTINI ENFIELD CARBINE,?,LEE METFORD CARBINE WITH 8 SHOT MAG FLATTEN BOLT,LEE METFORD MKII,LEE ENFIELD MKI AND MKI*. CARBINES WITHDRAWN 1898,ISSUED M.L.E.MKI LONG.
REF(BOOK NZ PERSONAL EQUIPMENT 1910-1945)

[Pat Holscher]

Bump.

[Pat Holscher]

Bump.

I'm sorry, everytime I see this photo it makes me chuckle. That cap. . . .