U.S. Army WWII Pay Scale

[Pat Holscher]

Posted by request.

[Pat Holscher]

Note the item for a private with 30 years service.

You wouldn't see that anymore. . .

[mnhorse]

1942 to 1964 were alike in several ways...... early in wars, WWII and Vietman and the pay of "good ol' Buck" only went up from $50.00 to $69.00. In September I was a Private E-1, newly minted college graduate and off to see the world. Actually, a fellow recuit told me he enlisted for the money! I was actually making more money in college working part time as a dormitory janitor at $1.25/hour.
Richard

[Pat Holscher]

Some additions

[Pat Holscher]

One more.

[Pat Holscher]

1942 to 1964 were alike in several ways...... early in wars, WWII and Vietman and the pay of "good ol' Buck" only went up from $50.00 to $69.00. In September I was a Private E-1, newly minted college graduate and off to see the world. Actually, a fellow recuit told me he enlisted for the money! I was actually making more money in college working part time as a dormitory janitor at $1.25/hour.
Richard

$69.00? Wow. I have to think that after inflation, you were likely getting paid less, in real terms, in 1964 than a soldier was getting paid in 1942.

[CRB]

Note the item for a private with 30 years service.

You wouldn't see that anymore. . .

The up or out system was a constant source of problems while I was in service....We concidered it an enforced Peters Principle.

[mnhorse]

Note the item for a private with 30 years service.

You wouldn't see that anymore. . .

The up or out system was a constant source of problems while I was in service....We concidered it an enforced Peters Principle.

In the mid 1960S, the up or out system seems to have applied to Officers only. The USAF was really hard nosed about it. I got to know a US Army Major while I was stationed in Germany, who made an interservice transfer from USAF to US Army to avoid being cut.

On the other hand, enlisted men could spend a whole career at say, Staff Sgt. I knew a WWII & Korean War veteran who was stuck in rank at Master Sgt, but his pay grade was still E-7 . He volunteered to go to Vietnam (1965) in hopes of getting that pay bump to E-8 so he could retire at that pay grade.

At that time, you retired at the highest rank you had achieved during you career. My outfit turned out for a Retirement Parade in 1966 in honor of.....Specialist "blank". We were wondering aloud why a slovenly, alcoholic, Sp-5 rated a parade. Found out as we passed in review. Here was our Sad Sack on the stand wearing the uniform of a Major and a chestful of medals. He had been promoted during WWII and fell back to enlisted status when the shooting ended. He spent 20 years hanging onto his E-5 pay grade.
Richard

[wkambic]

The current officer promotion system is governed by DOPMA, first passed in 1981. Here is a pretty good, if dated, explantion of the system: http://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/R4246/R4246.sec2.pdf

I can't speak for other services, but the Navy uses "continuation boards" (a group of officers who review and evaluate service records, similar in composition and function to "promotion boards") to determine who will continue on active duty after two failures to advance. The Navy boards have run "hot and cold" over the years (so I'm told). The Marines have and "up or out" system that predated DOPMA. I understand their system is quite rigid (and exceptions rarely granted).

I don't know if the Coarst Guard is subject to DOPMA or not, or if they have their own system.

Enlisted personnel management has its own rules. The first rule is re-enlistment eligibility. In times of surplus the minimum performance, rate, etc. scores go up; in short times they come down (sort of like recruiting standards). IIRC the longest enlistment is six years with a maximum of two one year extensions. During an enlistment a member can be separated for any reason or no reason at the pleasure of the Secretary of the Navy. There are some limits on that discretion, but if a surplus develops in any given rating the Secratary may authorize RIFing (Reduction in Force separations) with the quality of discharge based upon the service record. I've heard of boards being used if chiefs are involved (but RIFing a Chief would be an unusual event). I presume similar practices are followed in the other services.

An unusual thing going on right now is recalling retirees to active duty. This was done at the outset of WWII and being "retained on active duty after retirement" was not unknown during the Viet Nam era. In many ways it was a real ride on the "gravy train" as there were no performance evaluations and there was a contractual period of service. At least this was how it operated in the Navy. Most of the guys I know in this situation were volunteers. I understand many of the current recalls are not voluntary.

[Pat Holscher]

Note the item for a private with 30 years service.

You wouldn't see that anymore. . .

The up or out system was a constant source of problems while I was in service....We concidered it an enforced Peters Principle.

In the mid 1960S, the up or out system seems to have applied to Officers only. The USAF was really hard nosed about it. I got to know a US Army Major while I was stationed in Germany, who made an interservice transfer from USAF to US Army to avoid being cut.

On the other hand, enlisted men could spend a whole career at say, Staff Sgt. I knew a WWII & Korean War veteran who was stuck in rank at Master Sgt, but his pay grade was still E-7 . He volunteered to go to Vietnam (1965) in hopes of getting that pay bump to E-8 so he could retire at that pay grade.

At that time, you retired at the highest rank you had achieved during you career. My outfit turned out for a Retirement Parade in 1966 in honor of.....Specialist "blank". We were wondering aloud why a slovenly, alcoholic, Sp-5 rated a parade. Found out as we passed in review. Here was our Sad Sack on the stand wearing the uniform of a Major and a chestful of medals. He had been promoted during WWII and fell back to enlisted status when the shooting ended. He spent 20 years hanging onto his E-5 pay grade.
Richard

The system you describe has been, more or less, the one that has existed for a very long time. Basically, every service is up or out, but as you move up, given as there are fewer slots, and they have more responsibility, there's less opportunity to move up. Therefore, while I don't know for sure, I do not think that it would be unusual to find people retiring at the E6 pay grade today, after 20 years. Again, I'm sure somebody else can fill us in on that.

Everyone still retires at their highest rank held, as long as it was held for some specified period. For a long time after WWII there were quite a few NCOs who had been wartime officers. Even as late as the 1980s, there were quite a few NCOs in the Reserves and National Guard who had been active duty officers, and who were completing their time in the Guard or Reserve after having been "rifted". You'd think they'd have been bitter about that, and some were (probably most were to some extent), but they made pretty good NCOs. I knew a SFC who had been in the Navy as an em during the Korean War and who had been a very experienced fighter pilot during the Vietnam War. He was a great NCO, although he was bitter about having been rifted out of the Navy. I knew another SFC who had been a Marine Corps major, and yet another who had been a Captain during the Korean War. I'd guess that today there's probably hardly anyone who would have meet this description, but there could be a few.

The up and out system has its pluses and minuses, particularly with enlisted men. One thing that was good about the old system is that it allowed for the Army to retain men who were good privates, but were not good in any other role. A friend of my father's was a career Marine Corps private for this reason. He wasn't dumb by any means, but rather he was an experienced combat veteran. He'd been promoted up to sergeant several times, but the last time he asked to be made a private. He told my father that when the shooting started, he could think only of himself, and that he didn't want the responsibility that came with having to think of the other men. He liked the Marine Corps, however, and both he and his brother made careers of it.

On the other hand, today's Army is so technological that if a person stagnated at private, there would likely be a good reason, and that slot could be taken by somebody more likely to be useful. And additionally, after World War Two the Army saw the benefit of seeing that a lot of men had received some training. For much of the post WWII period the "obligor" period was six years, and now it's eight. That is, all US males have a military obligation of eight years, or six if they served under the prior system. The US does not have universal male conscription, of course, but it does have a universal military obligation. Most Americans do not realize that. The system operates such that the obligatory period starts to run with any military service. A common Cold War enlistment period was for two years (and the conscription period was about that too), leaving four years of obligation for most men who had served as enlisted men. This meant that it was in the Army's best interest to keep the best soldiers, cycle the rest out, or cycle those out who didn't want to stay (most of them), as those men retained a four year obligatory period and could be called back up at any time. While their training and service would be dated, in the big Cold War Army, it might not have been all that dated.

The obligation system also created a minor incentive for men to join the Guard and Reserve, although I've never heard anyone say they joined the reserves to wipe out their obligation system. It did, however. If a person served six years in the National Guard or Reserve, they had completely filled their obligation. Anyhow, by doing the up and out system, the Army collected a good collection of NCOs, and trained a whole bunch of additional people they might have used if necessary.

[Pat Holscher]

The Marines have and "up or out" system that predated DOPMA. I understand their system is quite rigid (and exceptions rarely granted).

On this, I sort of know a fellow in his late 30s who served for a long time (15 or so years) in the USMC and then got out due to family concerns. He's like to go back in, but the Marine Corps apparently will not allow it due to his present age. This surprised me as the Army is taking new recruits in who are actually over 40 years old right now, as shockingly old age in comparison to what's been the norm for a long time.

The Marines, of course, always needs fewer men, and perhaps they're over subscribed. I do recall that in the 80s, the Army discouraged National Guardsmen and Reservists who were E5s and above from going active duty, and it nearly always meant a reduction in rank. They didn't need more NCOs, and they had you where you were as it was.

[Pat Holscher]

Bumped up by request.

[Pat Holscher]

Anybody have a similar table for World War One?

[Pat Holscher]

World War One US rate of pay:

http://www.archive.org/stream/officiala ... 6/mode/2up

Thanks go out to Jim Broshot for this link.

[vamartin]

Dear Mr. Holscher,

I hope this message finds you well. Your posting was referred to me by a friend and I must say that this is a true gem! If you do not mind me asking, where did you find this great source?! This is exactly what I have been looking for! (I was trying to figure out the pay scale for Wacs during World War II which according to my friend was the same as enlisted men during this time period, with variations by rank, skill, and specialty pay.) Thank you again for your time. I look forward to your response. Have a wonderful day.

Best,
Valerie

[Couvi]

Dear Mr. Holscher,

I hope this message finds you well. Your posting was referred to me by a friend and I must say that this is a true gem! If you do not mind me asking, where did you find this great source?! This is exactly what I have been looking for! (I was trying to figure out the pay scale for Wacs during World War II which according to my friend was the same as enlisted men during this time period, with variations by rank, skill, and specialty pay.) Thank you again for your time. I look forward to your response. Have a wonderful day.

Best,
Valerie

Valerie,

Welcome aboard.

You may also try The Army Women's Museum at Fort Lee, VA: http://www.awm.lee.army.mil/

[Pat Holscher]

Dear Mr. Holscher,

I hope this message finds you well. Your posting was referred to me by a friend and I must say that this is a true gem! If you do not mind me asking, where did you find this great source?! This is exactly what I have been looking for! (I was trying to figure out the pay scale for Wacs during World War II which according to my friend was the same as enlisted men during this time period, with variations by rank, skill, and specialty pay.) Thank you again for your time. I look forward to your response. Have a wonderful day.

Best,
Valerie

Valerie,

Welcome aboard.

You may also try The Army Women's Museum at Fort Lee, VA: http://www.awm.lee.army.mil/

Valarie, that table is included in an officer's manual that I have in my collection. I think there's a separate edition for each year of the war, but they'd all be similar. It's an unofficial manual, but a good one, that was aimed at reserve officers brought into the service during the war. It might have a table for Wacs, which I'll look up when I have a chance.

This was actually posted originally as I'd looked it up for an author who was publishing a book that related to this topic in some fashion. I'll have to look and see if the book was published.

[Todd]

Note the item for a private with 30 years service.

You wouldn't see that anymore. . .

At least not this side of Disciplinary Barracks Leavenworth.

[vamartin]

Valerie,

Welcome aboard.

You may also try The Army Women's Museum at Fort Lee, VA: http://www.awm.lee.army.mil/[/quote]


Dear Mr. Couvi,

Thank you so much! This forum is amazing and so informative! Thank you for your suggestion. I know the curator there and haven't spoken with her in awhile so I will definitely reach out to her and see if she has any information on hand. Have a wonderful day!

Best,
Valerie

[vamartin]

"Valarie, that table is included in an officer's manual that I have in my collection. I think there's a separate edition for each year of the war, but they'd all be similar. It's an unofficial manual, but a good one, that was aimed at reserve officers brought into the service during the war. It might have a table for Wacs, which I'll look up when I have a chance.

This was actually posted originally as I'd looked it up for an author who was publishing a book that related to this topic in some fashion. I'll have to look and see if the book was published."

Pat

Dear Mr. Holscher,

Thank you so very much for your response! And thank you, I would love to know if the book was published with the information! I can cite it in my own work! I am a PhD candidate in the Department of History at the University of Texas at Austin and I am currently writing my dissertation on Latina Servicewomen during World War II. I conducted research at NARA II, but I am afraid I was so focused on recruitment that I didn't find or see the vital information about pay for Wacs! Another member suggested the Army Women's Museum at Fort Lee, which is brilliant. I also conducted research there but I cannot remember if I found that information. I am going to email the curator to see if she has that information on hand so I do not have to make another trip to Virginia or College Park! Thank you again and have a wonderful evening.

Best,
Valerie