Joe Puleo
Boer War Picture
I just received this picture from Canada, bought it as an illustration for a book I'm working on. It turned out to be much sharper than the e-bay version so I'm thinking that it might be possible to actually identify the unit. Given the Long Lee-Enfield or Lee-Metford, I'm sure he's a Mounted Infantryman but the hat is something I'm not familiar with. The badge doesn't look familiar at all and its practically impossible to get it both big enough and sharp enough on a computer screen to be much help. Does anyone have any ideas?
Joe Puleo
Joe Puleo
I didn't know puttees were wrapped the other way. Many years ago, when I was in my teens, I collected WWI uniforms. The veterans were still alive in those days, in fact my great-uncle, who was a WWI veteran showed me how to wrap them - and he started at the bottom.
Admittedly he was in the US Army.
Joe Puleo
Admittedly he was in the US Army.
Joe Puleo
Infantry did wrap from the bottom up, but there have been other threads where it was discussed that Cav wrapped fromt he top down. Come to think of it, you did mention he was mounted infantry which might explain this.
--Brian
--Brian
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Pat Holscher
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Very interesting photo.
What a peculiar hat, what with no brim at all. Do we think this is an English trooper, or a Canadian one?
What a peculiar hat, what with no brim at all. Do we think this is an English trooper, or a Canadian one?
Thats the problem Pat,
The rifle - a long Lee Enfield or Lee Metford, and all of the other equipment say Boer War British but the hat is unlike anything I've ever seen on a mounted soldier. Presuming he is an infantryman thats been mounted - I still don't remember ever seeing a hat like that. The picture came from Canada. I wondered if it could be a mounted member of the Naval Brigade, but it doesn't look like a navy hat either. Its so unusual that someone must know. There is a badge on the front of the hat but because he is in profile - which is beautiful for showing the rifle, which is why I bought the picture - you can't see enough of it to get a strong idea what it is.
Joe P
The rifle - a long Lee Enfield or Lee Metford, and all of the other equipment say Boer War British but the hat is unlike anything I've ever seen on a mounted soldier. Presuming he is an infantryman thats been mounted - I still don't remember ever seeing a hat like that. The picture came from Canada. I wondered if it could be a mounted member of the Naval Brigade, but it doesn't look like a navy hat either. Its so unusual that someone must know. There is a badge on the front of the hat but because he is in profile - which is beautiful for showing the rifle, which is why I bought the picture - you can't see enough of it to get a strong idea what it is.
Joe P
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Pat Holscher
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Some digging suggests that the soldier is wearing a "Broderick Cap", which was a cap worn by the British from 1902 to around 1907.
I'm totally unfamiliar with this headgear, but stumbled upon the reference. There's a really old thread on The Long Long Trail in which the cap style is identified by Joe Sweeney by description. Joe stops in here from time to time, so perhaps he'll happen upon this photo and give us his opinion. Using that term as a search did dig up an illustration depicting a British soldier wearing such a cap.
At any rate, the photo couldn't be any earlier than 1902, I think.
Apparently these hats were not liked.
I'm totally unfamiliar with this headgear, but stumbled upon the reference. There's a really old thread on The Long Long Trail in which the cap style is identified by Joe Sweeney by description. Joe stops in here from time to time, so perhaps he'll happen upon this photo and give us his opinion. Using that term as a search did dig up an illustration depicting a British soldier wearing such a cap.
At any rate, the photo couldn't be any earlier than 1902, I think.
Apparently these hats were not liked.
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Pat Holscher
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Broderick Cap depiction:
http://www.collections.co.uk/postcards/ ... /twra.jpeg
The caption states: " The figure at top centre wears Service Dress, Broderick cap and Mounted Infantry equipment, 1906."
http://www.collections.co.uk/postcards/ ... s/twr.html
Stumbled on this with a search for "Broderick Cap", after picking up the name from a description by Joe Sweeney on the Great War Forum. Otherwise, I don't know anything about what's' being depicted here, or this site.
http://www.collections.co.uk/postcards/ ... /twra.jpeg
The caption states: " The figure at top centre wears Service Dress, Broderick cap and Mounted Infantry equipment, 1906."
http://www.collections.co.uk/postcards/ ... s/twr.html
Stumbled on this with a search for "Broderick Cap", after picking up the name from a description by Joe Sweeney on the Great War Forum. Otherwise, I don't know anything about what's' being depicted here, or this site.
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roy elderkin
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Pat
I am unable to identify the hat, but the puttees are wound correctly for the British Army, the British South Africa Police wound them the other way round top to bottom, with a v shape in front The rider is wearing spur shields, which indicative of the type of dress.
In answer to Sandy the bit is a British Army Port Mouth Reversable [PMR].
Roy
I am unable to identify the hat, but the puttees are wound correctly for the British Army, the British South Africa Police wound them the other way round top to bottom, with a v shape in front The rider is wearing spur shields, which indicative of the type of dress.
In answer to Sandy the bit is a British Army Port Mouth Reversable [PMR].
Roy
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roy elderkin
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I dont think this photo was taken during the Boer War but well after it, the horse a cob, looks to healthy and well fed. Also the halter rope has been whitened, ropes were un painted and were kept a sandy colour or natural.
Judging by the landscpape, this is not the high veldt but more like the Karroo or South West Africa.
Roy
Judging by the landscpape, this is not the high veldt but more like the Karroo or South West Africa.
Roy
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roy elderkin
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Having another look at the photo, the headress rather reminds me of the German Kriegsmarine hat of the early period.
Roy
Roy
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Pat Holscher
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Yes, I agree. That hat is extremely close in appearance to that. And it also pretty closely resembles the German army fatigue cap of the WWI period, but the Kreigsmarine cap is closer. That's interesting to note, as the immediate temptation is to think this fellow must be some sort of marine on shore duty.roy elderkin wrote:Having another look at the photo, the headress rather reminds me of the German Kriegsmarine hat of the early period.
Roy
I wasn't aware of the Broderick cap until yesterday, but the several comments on it I found all note these resemblances. I wonder if British troops noted them at the time as well? It seems that the Broderick cap was pretty intensely disliked, at least based on the few comments I've seen on it.
I may link this thread in to the Great War forum thread by way of a post over there, to see if we can get some more information on this very unique photo.
He could be Royal Marine Light Infantry, which would make him a genuine "horse marine". There is a metal flash on the shoulder that I haven't been able to read but I'll take the picture into the office and try some serious magnification. The picture is very sharp and must have been kept in an album because it shows almost no sign of fading. I did try it on the computer but no matter how large you make it the 72 lines per inch monitor is inadequate to the task.
Roy... do you think the picture could the picture have been taken in China? The RMLI were there during the Boxer Rebellion and slightly after. I believe they were issued the funny hats in 1903.
Joe P
Roy... do you think the picture could the picture have been taken in China? The RMLI were there during the Boxer Rebellion and slightly after. I believe they were issued the funny hats in 1903.
Joe P
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Pat Holscher
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Roy's point about the horse is an excellent one. This is certainly not an underfed mount.
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Pat Holscher
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This fellow's clean shaven, clean appearance, and nice clean tack are a bit at odds for extended field service as well.selewis wrote:Roy, thanks for clearing up my bit question. Regarding groceries I thought he looked soft too, which is curious in that his feet are way past due.
Sandy
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roy elderkin
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Joe
I do not know that much about the RMLI, but the terrain behind the rider is getting me stumped, it is to sparce and sandy to be the SA High Veld, it is more like the area going towards SWA, or the Great Karroo. It could well be China, some parts are not dissimilar, but I would be only guessing.
The horse and rider are too pristine as Pat points out to have been involved in the war, very recently or at all.
Roy
I do not know that much about the RMLI, but the terrain behind the rider is getting me stumped, it is to sparce and sandy to be the SA High Veld, it is more like the area going towards SWA, or the Great Karroo. It could well be China, some parts are not dissimilar, but I would be only guessing.
The horse and rider are too pristine as Pat points out to have been involved in the war, very recently or at all.
Roy
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Larry Emrick
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Here's an excerpt from the website of 1st The Queen's Dragood Guards that might help explain the Broderick cap:
Late Nineteenth Century
During the latter decades of the nineteenth century, khaki had been replacing the old scarlet on active service conditions. India and the Sudan established its utility, and in 1898 an experimental issue of khaki was made, to be succeeded in 1900 by an general issue of khaki serge, which both the KDG and Bays wore in South Africa. The late Victorian pattern pith helmet was often replaced on the veldt by a floppy broad-brimmed felt hat. In 1902 an Army order laid down the form of dress for occasions when full dress was not to be worn. A peaked khaki cap was worn by all ranks; the khaki tunic was cut loose with two patch pockets on the chest. Officers’ service dress jackets had a khaki collar and tie, and were worn with a Sam Brown leather sword belt. Badges of rank for officers were worn on the cuff. Breeches and brown riding boots were worn by officers, and Bedford cord breeches and puttees by the other ranks. In 1903 the KDG were issued with the much-disliked Broderick cap, and the much-prized Victorian pill-box forage cap was discontinued. The Broderick cap was of blue cloth, round in shape with a projecting rim, but with no peak; it was worn with a chinstrap, and the metal regimental badge of the Austrian double-headed eagle on a red background in the centre at the front. On their return to England in 1908 the Bays were issued with a blue Broderick cap, with the regimental badge on a white patch at the front - the patch later being changed to light buff.
Larry
Late Nineteenth Century
During the latter decades of the nineteenth century, khaki had been replacing the old scarlet on active service conditions. India and the Sudan established its utility, and in 1898 an experimental issue of khaki was made, to be succeeded in 1900 by an general issue of khaki serge, which both the KDG and Bays wore in South Africa. The late Victorian pattern pith helmet was often replaced on the veldt by a floppy broad-brimmed felt hat. In 1902 an Army order laid down the form of dress for occasions when full dress was not to be worn. A peaked khaki cap was worn by all ranks; the khaki tunic was cut loose with two patch pockets on the chest. Officers’ service dress jackets had a khaki collar and tie, and were worn with a Sam Brown leather sword belt. Badges of rank for officers were worn on the cuff. Breeches and brown riding boots were worn by officers, and Bedford cord breeches and puttees by the other ranks. In 1903 the KDG were issued with the much-disliked Broderick cap, and the much-prized Victorian pill-box forage cap was discontinued. The Broderick cap was of blue cloth, round in shape with a projecting rim, but with no peak; it was worn with a chinstrap, and the metal regimental badge of the Austrian double-headed eagle on a red background in the centre at the front. On their return to England in 1908 the Bays were issued with a blue Broderick cap, with the regimental badge on a white patch at the front - the patch later being changed to light buff.
Larry