Supplemental_Natl_Def_Approp_1941_number of saddles available.PNG (56.98 KiB) Viewed 4067 times
Some of the commentary in these hearings was amazing - the military did themselves no favors by having three different saddle systems names 'Phillips'...
Note that there is enough detail to see that the 'M1913 mule-riding McClellan' and the skeleton-rigged packers saddles are no longer actively tracked, so the presumption seems to be that they were already surplussed out of the system.
Another very interesting development is that there are thousands of officers saddles listed as being part of government inventory - suggests that these (or some significant class of these) were not private purchase items anymore. A good number would be training saddles used at the various schools, but this is showing clearly that officers saddles were being 'issued' in some manner or other in 1941.
Those are very interesting numbers indeed. I am surprised to see so many standard M1904 saddles (50K units) and 1904 modified = 1928 (66K units) in inventory so late in the game. The report is only a couple of years before the final dismount of the last cavalry units, so they must have seen the writing on the wall, as it were, by then. Thanks for that information Todd.
I thought the army was already selling off some as surplus as early as the 1930's?
Last edited by Fossilhorse on Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This really only represents about 20% (or possibly less) of what was on-hand in 1919. They were surplussing equipment that was still in the manufacturers boxes sitting on depot sidings - the excess made during WW1 was almost criminal (as there weren't regulations/laws in force yet about this).
AN ACT Making appropriations for the Military Establishment for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1942, and for other purposes. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, . . . . [CHAPTER 262]
Page 373: “Territories of Hawaii and Alaska, for the personnel attached thereto. Regular supplies of the Army: Regular supplies of the Quartermaster Corps, including their care and protection; field ranges, field stoves for cooking food, coffee roasters, field bakery equipment, and appliances for cooking and serving food at posts (except fixed installations in buildings), in the field and when traveling, and repair and maintenance of such equipment; authorized issues of candles and matches; authorized issues of soap, toilet paper, and towels; for the necessary furniture, textbooks. paper, and equipment for troop schools; for the purchase and issue of instruments, office furniture, stationery, and other authorized articles for the use of officers' schools at the several military posts; for purchase of commercial newspapers, periodicals, market reports, technical books, and so forth; for equipment and furniture for kitchens and mess halls, each and all for the enlisted men, including recruits; for forage, salt, and vinegar for the horses, mules, oxen, and other draft and riding animals of the Quartermaster Corps at the several posts and stations and with the armies in the field, for the horses of the several regiments of Cavalry and batteries of Artillery and such companies of Infantry and Scouts as may be mounted, and for remounts and for the authorized number of officers' horses, including bedding for the animals; for seeds and implements required for the raising of forage at remount depots and on military reservations in the Hawaiian, Philippine, and Panama Canal Departments, and for labor and expenses incident thereto, including, when specifically authorized by the Secretary of War, the cost of irrigation; for the purchase of implements and hire of labor for harvesting hay on military reservations; for straw for soldiers' bedding, stationery, typewriters and exchange of same, including blankbooks and blank forms for the Army, certificates for discharged soldiers, and for printing department orders and and reports, $19,238,000.”
Page 388: “Provided further, That none of the funds appropriated in this Act shall be used for the organization or maintenance of a greater number of mounted units in the Reserve Officers' Training Corps than were in existence on January 1, 1928, or for additional motor transport or tank units unless in replacement of existing cavalry units: Provided further, That none of the funds appropriated in this Act shall be available for any expense on account of any student in Air Corps, Dental Corps, or Veterinary units not a member of such units on May 5, 1932, but such stoppage of further enrollments shall not interfere with the maintenance of existing units: Provided further, That none of the funds appropriated elsewhere in this Act, except for printing and binding and pay and allowances of officers and enlisted men, shall be used for expenses in connection with the Reserve Officers' Training Corps.”
Army Appropriation Bill, 1929, Hearing Before the Committee on Military Affairs House of Representatives Sixty-Fifty Congress, Third Session January 18 to February 7, 1919, Volume One
Page 108: Mr. Tilson. There has been some criticism about the very large number of saddles which the Army has. Someone has said that we have a million and some hundred thousands of saddles, and about 100,000 horses. Have you any statement as to the number of saddles we have?
Gen. Lord. We can give you the exact number, and put that in the record, if you would like to have it.
Page 177-78: Mr. Shallenberger. There has been a constant story going around that we have had a great excess of saddles: that we had something like 400,000 animals, I believe, and a million and a half saddles purchased, apparently, on account of duplication of purchases. What are the real facts about that, do you know?
Mr. Thorne. I have looked that up, in regard to that particular thing. The greatest purchase of saddles has been made through the Ordnance Department, and at the time I had to come down here this morning they were unable to give me the full records. So far as the Quartermaster purchases are concerned I know we did not buy an extensive number.
Mr. Shallenberger. As far as you know you would not state that there is at present an excess of saddles?
Mr. Thorne. Yes; I am very positive there is a great deal of foundation for that particular story you mention. Of course, it was due at the beginning to the fact that we did not know the conditions warfare abroad, and were purchasing saddles, not only for Cavalry, which they are practically unable to use, but also we purchased a great number of saddles for the Field Artillery. Going with those there were also Field Artillery harness.
When I came down in January we were sending horses abroad at the rate of 20,000 a month, and they immediately shut those off, and we sent no more horses abroad. The saddles had been ordered before that. We could not get them over on the ships. We had to use the ships for other supplies, and it would be very natural that while they may have needed Artillery harness on the other side at the beginning, when they motorized it, that left a large surplus of Artillery harness and saddles. I think that was the principal cause of the surplus we had.
Mr. Garrett. Are those saddles of two types, one for Artillery and the other for Cavalry, or are they both of the same type ?
Mr. Thorne. As nearly as I can make out, the only difference is this, that one of them is provided with iron stirrups and the other with leather hoop stirrups. It is the McClellan tree saddle. Civilians do not use that saddle in the West, and in the East they use a different kind of saddle, too. The great market for an article would be to sell them to some foreign government.
Fossilhorse wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:40 pm
Those are very interesting numbers indeed. I am surprised to see so many standard M1904 saddles (50K units) and 1904 modified = 1928 (66K units) in inventory so late in the game. The report is only a couple of years before the final dismount of the last cavalry units, so they must have seen the writing on the wall, as it were, by then. Thanks for that information Todd.
I thought the army was already selling off some as surplus as early as the 1930's?
The end was clearer retrospectively than it was at the time. Indeed, at the time, the U.S. cavalry was experimenting with integrating mechanization in horse cavalry units to augment their mobility and there were no plans to eliminate horse cavalry itself.
Fossilhorse wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:40 pm
Those are very interesting numbers indeed. I am surprised to see so many standard M1904 saddles (50K units) and 1904 modified = 1928 (66K units) in inventory so late in the game. The report is only a couple of years before the final dismount of the last cavalry units, so they must have seen the writing on the wall, as it were, by then. Thanks for that information Todd.
I thought the army was already selling off some as surplus as early as the 1930's?
The end was clearer retrospectively than it was at the time. Indeed, at the time, the U.S. cavalry was experimenting with integrating mechanization in horse cavalry units to augment their mobility and there were no plans to eliminate horse cavalry itself.
Looking at some of the stuff that the Cavalry branch was putting out, it was clear that they were about the only ones that were still trying to keep the horses - the writing was clearly on the wall for everyone else.
Read the very last 'Cavalry Journal' intro the other day, just before it was renamed to 'Armor Journal', and BG Herr's article in defense of horse-mounted cavalry was so bizarre it bordered on the unhinged.
Todd wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:51 am
Read the very last 'Cavalry Journal' intro the other day, just before it was renamed to 'Armor Journal', and BG Herr's article in defense of horse-mounted cavalry was so bizarre it bordered on the unhinged.
Todd wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:51 am
Read the very last 'Cavalry Journal' intro the other day, just before it was renamed to 'Armor Journal', and BG Herr's article in defense of horse-mounted cavalry was so bizarre it bordered on the unhinged.
Was that in the last issue?
I'll have to dig it up on Hathitrust site - it was sometime in 1939. There was this one example of how cavalry could flow around a rock obstruction on a narrow road, whereas a vehicle would have to stop, forcing the occupants out to clear the obstruction and making them vulnerable to fire..... I had to laugh out loud at the lunacy of that. Like a bunch of guys plumping along on horses aren't going to be gigantic, soft fire magnets.
Fossilhorse wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:40 pm
Those are very interesting numbers indeed. I am surprised to see so many standard M1904 saddles (50K units) and 1904 modified = 1928 (66K units) in inventory so late in the game. The report is only a couple of years before the final dismount of the last cavalry units, so they must have seen the writing on the wall, as it were, by then. Thanks for that information Todd.
I thought the army was already selling off some as surplus as early as the 1930's?
The end was clearer retrospectively than it was at the time. Indeed, at the time, the U.S. cavalry was experimenting with integrating mechanization in horse cavalry units to augment their mobility and there were no plans to eliminate horse cavalry itself.
Looking at some of the stuff that the Cavalry branch was putting out, it was clear that they were about the only ones that were still trying to keep the horses - the writing was clearly on the wall for everyone else.
Read the very last 'Cavalry Journal' intro the other day, just before it was renamed to 'Armor Journal', and BG Herr's article in defense of horse-mounted cavalry was so bizarre it bordered on the unhinged.
Pat, I wasn't aware of that. I'm not sure how the horses would have taken to being fielded with huge clanging armored vehicles, but that is very interesting indeed.
Todd, I believe you are correct about the cavalry being the last to accept their own obsolescence.
Fossilhorse wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:59 pm
Pat, I wasn't aware of that. I'm not sure how the horses would have taken to being fielded with huge clanging armored vehicles, but that is very interesting indeed.
Better than a person might suppose. The peacetime US experiment with Horse Mech proved viable in that setting (peacetime) and the Soviets fielded quite a bit of cavalry during the war, including using it in concert with armor.
As an odd aside, the first units to close the circle on the doomed German Sixth Army at Stalingrad were Red horse cavalry.
Actually, the Germans were more horse-mounted than mechanized during the war. Despite the German propaganda, in Europe, we wee the ones with mechanized army.
As to failure to see the end of era of the horse, consider the remount system and its nearly superhuman efforts to bring in superb European blood horses. Unfortunately the breed associations did not all welcome the new stock to the stud books, and then Army control was lost to the Dept of Agriculture where the progressive green-eye-shade guys got rid of them under shameful circumstances.
Excellent book "The Perfect Horse" covers a lot of this.
