Pre 1912 treasure?
Just a questions for some experts regarding an Ebay item. Check item # 271143408665. Is this a rare pre 1912 model? I was not able to check last night but the pommel looks like it and they describe hinges and other adjustments that can be made with it. Is it the real deal? Tom
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Kurt Hughes
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Hi Tom
I agree with you that it is one of the circa 1910 experimental saddles, as you know only a handful were produced. It is perhaps not pretty but regardless of condition it is what it is, I have to agree with you again that it sure is a treasure, some things I never expect to see come up for sale, I know Rick was lucky in finding another rare model experimental saddle a few years ago, I imagined such things to be a one off, thanks to Dušan for alerting me about it on ebay
Given the condition this one could have so easily ended up on a scrap heap never to be seen again.
There is not much out there about these, of course one of the best references being Ken and Stephen's saddle book, in addition I have some photos of examples from the period and later.
What would you do with it? I know you have experience of having your M1912 restored, this looks to be fairly straight forward if I decided to go down that route (but for display only), it would not involve removing any original parts plus it could be reversed. It is something I will have to think about.
Leave or restore?
Kurt.
I agree with you that it is one of the circa 1910 experimental saddles, as you know only a handful were produced. It is perhaps not pretty but regardless of condition it is what it is, I have to agree with you again that it sure is a treasure, some things I never expect to see come up for sale, I know Rick was lucky in finding another rare model experimental saddle a few years ago, I imagined such things to be a one off, thanks to Dušan for alerting me about it on ebay
Given the condition this one could have so easily ended up on a scrap heap never to be seen again.There is not much out there about these, of course one of the best references being Ken and Stephen's saddle book, in addition I have some photos of examples from the period and later.
What would you do with it? I know you have experience of having your M1912 restored, this looks to be fairly straight forward if I decided to go down that route (but for display only), it would not involve removing any original parts plus it could be reversed. It is something I will have to think about.
Leave or restore?
Kurt.
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Kurt Hughes
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2001 12:59 pm
I thought I would post some photos of the saddle from the topic. I believe it to be one of the 1910/11 experimental saddles, this one being an officers variation.
The first pic is the ebay photo, second shows how easily it can be stripped, lastly how it is now no restoration just cleaned and the wood oiled.
The first pic is the ebay photo, second shows how easily it can be stripped, lastly how it is now no restoration just cleaned and the wood oiled.
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Kurt Hughes
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Some more photos but of how it would have looked, the first is of a 13th cavalry trooper with a similar but not identical saddle, the stirrups are leather covered without hoods with a leather section laced on the tread(if anyone has one or two I would be interested or other related experimental parts from this time) perhaps also worth noting is that he has an early example of what later became the Model 1912 cartridge belt.
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Curious - looks like the lower original photo specimen is likely using some fitting that keeps the 'rotating hinge' action inside the bottom edge of the cantle - something like a tongue from the sidebar with a pin through the cantle (just speculating as from the lack of external hardware) - still keeps cantle 'floating'. The artifact's barrel type hinges look much more robust.
Stirrup hangers are odd - have seen other photos showing an original where these looked like simple metal rod/wire with this same lowered rear point. Wonder as to the efficiency of that angle...
Stirrup hangers are odd - have seen other photos showing an original where these looked like simple metal rod/wire with this same lowered rear point. Wonder as to the efficiency of that angle...
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Rick Throckmorton
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Thanks for sharing the photos, Kurt. Such a rare piece!
Rick T
Rick T
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Kurt Hughes
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The cantle in the black and white photo example is fixed in a similar way that the pommel is on mine with a long screw passing through the hinge. My example is held in place by a split pin, obviously testing different ideas as I have a photo of another experimental saddle which differs slightly in design but has the same cantle arrangement as mine, it is one of the two examples that were or are in Ft Sill and have featured in couple of books.
The stirrup hangers are odd indeed, you will see below there is a small leaf type spring (possibly bent out of place) but I guess the design was not too successful it might explain the wire wrapped around both hangers, these were a safety loop being tested at the time and not a design just to make it easier to slip on or off stirrup straps whilst testing. It is interesting to see where ideas later used on the model 1912 saddles were experimented with, adjustable seat, quick release safety stirrup loops.
One last note I incorrectly titled it in my earlier post as an officers example, I believe it to be just one of the few 1910 experimental saddles not defined as officers or service.
Not the best quality pics as I just took them quickly.
The stirrup hangers are odd indeed, you will see below there is a small leaf type spring (possibly bent out of place) but I guess the design was not too successful it might explain the wire wrapped around both hangers, these were a safety loop being tested at the time and not a design just to make it easier to slip on or off stirrup straps whilst testing. It is interesting to see where ideas later used on the model 1912 saddles were experimented with, adjustable seat, quick release safety stirrup loops.
One last note I incorrectly titled it in my earlier post as an officers example, I believe it to be just one of the few 1910 experimental saddles not defined as officers or service.
Not the best quality pics as I just took them quickly.
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Last edited by Kurt Hughes on Mon May 05, 2014 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kurt Hughes
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Just had a quick dig through my references, this is from the "Directions for use of Experimental Equipment 1911", what follows are instructions on how to assemble the saddle:
"To assemble the parts of the saddle when they are received "knocked down", proceed as follows: Take the seat and engage its two studs or buttons on one side into the corresponding slots in the side bar pertaining to that side. This is some trouble, and will usually be better performed by two men aiding one another. Next engage the remaining buttons in the slots of the opposite side bar. While taking pains that these buttons do not slip out of these sockets on the side bars. Then place the pommel in its hinges and secure with the proper pins. After this secure the cantle in place by its cotter pins or screw caps as the case may be. If the latter, screw them in well, yet not so far as to stop the motion of the side bar on its hinge. Place the felt pads on the side bar by slipping the rear tip into the leather pocket over the side bar and buckle it snugly. Place the double buckle coat straps on the pommel, slipping them through the loops inside to keep them in position. Three single buckle coat straps go in the foot staples on the cantle. The cincha is readily attached to the off latigo by the cincha attachment."
I guess this shows that the two variations of cantle attachment illustrated in my previous post were being tested at the same time. By the way I can vouch for it being awkward assembling the saddle, in particular keeping the seat in the sidebar slots whilst attaching the pommel.
Note also the use of the double coat straps later used on the Model 1912 saddles, the older style McClellan stirrup hangers on the sidebars are for hanging the experimental rifle boot and sabre carrier.
Kurt.
"To assemble the parts of the saddle when they are received "knocked down", proceed as follows: Take the seat and engage its two studs or buttons on one side into the corresponding slots in the side bar pertaining to that side. This is some trouble, and will usually be better performed by two men aiding one another. Next engage the remaining buttons in the slots of the opposite side bar. While taking pains that these buttons do not slip out of these sockets on the side bars. Then place the pommel in its hinges and secure with the proper pins. After this secure the cantle in place by its cotter pins or screw caps as the case may be. If the latter, screw them in well, yet not so far as to stop the motion of the side bar on its hinge. Place the felt pads on the side bar by slipping the rear tip into the leather pocket over the side bar and buckle it snugly. Place the double buckle coat straps on the pommel, slipping them through the loops inside to keep them in position. Three single buckle coat straps go in the foot staples on the cantle. The cincha is readily attached to the off latigo by the cincha attachment."
I guess this shows that the two variations of cantle attachment illustrated in my previous post were being tested at the same time. By the way I can vouch for it being awkward assembling the saddle, in particular keeping the seat in the sidebar slots whilst attaching the pommel.
Note also the use of the double coat straps later used on the Model 1912 saddles, the older style McClellan stirrup hangers on the sidebars are for hanging the experimental rifle boot and sabre carrier.
Kurt.
Kurt, very impressive! Sorry i missed your original post and did not get back with you. I also use my work email and rarely check my other email. Very glad it is in a good home. Since you could reverse the restoration saddle it's up to you to leave or restore, to your preference. I restored the 1912 because i was very interested in how it actually rode. Thanks very much for posting the photos. Are you aware of any evaluations of its trial? Hope all is well with you. Tom
Looks like those could have shared the same keyholes in the sidebar....tmarsh wrote:Kurt, Any info regarding an additional saddle flap like in the photo with the trooper? Tom
Am I correct in thinking that the hinges appear to be brazed to sheet metal, and they're not single machined or cast pieces?
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Kurt Hughes
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Hi Tom and Todd
Thanks for your replies, In answer to your questions no I have not yet come across any information as to the saddles evaluation, but I am looking.
Likewise I have no other info in the saddle flap, it could be as Todd suggests in that it could share the same keyholes but interestingly my tree has a row of rivets four rivets on each side of the sidebar, there are also some small nails, I wonder if the rivets held the longer flap in place I cannot think what other purpose they might have served? See below.
I have very limited information or photos on these, there are the two photographed in "The American Military Saddle 1776-1945" the same examples are shown in "Saddles" by Beattie they were at Ft Sill. I have some other photos but yet again of the same two saddles other than those and the one I posted I have not seen any others, although from memory there are some in one of the cavalry journals but not of just the saddle. If anyone knows of any other I would appreciate seeing them. The one of the 13th cavalry trooper is one of a set but I cannot find the others but in the back of my mind I recall seeing them years ago, I know one is in "The American Military Saddle 1776-1945".
I think the hinges are cast as they have that slight roughness, what do you think?
Here are some additional pics, sorry if it is too many.
Seat attachment keyholes
Pommel Hinge
Rivets in sidebar
Cantle hinge
cantle removed
Kurt.
Thanks for your replies, In answer to your questions no I have not yet come across any information as to the saddles evaluation, but I am looking.
Likewise I have no other info in the saddle flap, it could be as Todd suggests in that it could share the same keyholes but interestingly my tree has a row of rivets four rivets on each side of the sidebar, there are also some small nails, I wonder if the rivets held the longer flap in place I cannot think what other purpose they might have served? See below.
I have very limited information or photos on these, there are the two photographed in "The American Military Saddle 1776-1945" the same examples are shown in "Saddles" by Beattie they were at Ft Sill. I have some other photos but yet again of the same two saddles other than those and the one I posted I have not seen any others, although from memory there are some in one of the cavalry journals but not of just the saddle. If anyone knows of any other I would appreciate seeing them. The one of the 13th cavalry trooper is one of a set but I cannot find the others but in the back of my mind I recall seeing them years ago, I know one is in "The American Military Saddle 1776-1945".
I think the hinges are cast as they have that slight roughness, what do you think?
Here are some additional pics, sorry if it is too many.
Seat attachment keyholes
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