What's up with that cap. . . a thread dedicated to unusual.

[Trooper]

http://cgi.ebay.com/CABINET-PHOTO-MUSKE ... 286.c0.m14

Funny hats were/are not confined to the military.

[Pat Holscher]

In a "working uniform" I can wear a baseball-type cap, which at least has the advantage of keeping the sun out of my eyes, but you can't really stuff it in your pocket when you go indoors.

In the semi-dress uniform? Or is that one with utilities?

I'm hoping you'll say utilities. I know ball caps have long received utility use, but I'd have a hard time imaging that with another uniform.

That would be utilities -- working khaki, working blue, coveralls, and BDUs. Yes, it would look strange with a service uniform.

I actually think it would look a bit odd with khakis as well. I even seen people in suits and sports coats wearing them, which also looks odd to me.

Ball caps sure have been extremely common in everything. I wonder when they were actually first introduced into military service. Was it by the Navy in WWII? It seems the USAF was wearing them in blue by the 50s with ODs.

I long eschewed ball caps (or actually "truckers caps" or "CAT hats" or "John Deere" hats, as I didn't like the way they looked on me, and didn't like they way most looked in general. And of course, I normally wear broad brimmed caps.

But then a very kind fellow who frequents here (but whose been unfortunately absent recently), sent me one made by his company. Darn, it was slick. I now have a few of them from his company, as well as a New York Yankees ball cap that was given to me by a coworker. In looking at them, it's clear that they've changed since the dreaded "truckers cap" that I had associated the style with. Indeed, I have a trucker cap type given to me by somebody, and it really is different. I now wear my ball caps quite a bit, and really like the several of them I have, although in the sticks I still wear a broad brimmed cap, unless I need hearing protection or something. I owe thanks, therefore, to the follow who so kindly sent me some. I now have several neat ones.

I've noticed that they seem to have expanded in some sorts of ground troop use. Prince Harry, who was recently serving in Afghanistan, was shown wearing a khaki ball cap with the US flag velcroed to the front. And I'm familiar with another Commonwealth Army wearing just such a hat, which allows their uniform flag to be velcroed to the front, just as it is with many nations battle dress uniforms on the sleeve (to include the US Army).

[Couvi]

Spike Jones and the City Slickers performing In the Fuehrer’ Face. Note the hats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqG9YVd7OBU&NR=1

[Trooper]

Couvi stop this anarchy!
Back to the thread:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CDV-Soldier-Militar ... 286.c0.m14

[Pat Holscher]

Spike Jones and the City Slickers performing In the Fuehrer’ Face. Note the hats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqG9YVd7OBU&NR=1

An all time classic.

[Pat Holscher]

Of course, to modern eyes, the hat depicted in this thread, discussed before, certainly is unusual looking:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2402&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[Couvi]

Of course, to modern eyes, the hat depicted in this thread, discussed before, certainly is unusual looking:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2402&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

And, quite large.

[Pat Holscher]

Of course, to modern eyes, the hat depicted in this thread, discussed before, certainly is unusual looking:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2402&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

And, quite large.

That's a fact.

A while back, I saw an Identical Death's Head affixed to some eccentric fellow's winter hat. Very unusual, to say the least (and of course quite enormous). The rest of his winter attire was similarly eccentric. He would have looked more at home in the wilds of the Steppes than here, which is what I suppose he was shooting for.

I have to assume, based on that, super huge Death's Heads are available somewhere on the repro market.

[Pat Holscher]

Did some Canadian units use some sort of beret early in World War One?

The reason I ask is that the American Rifleman, in the current issue, has an article on the Canadian Ross rifle. As we all know, Canada issued the Ross prior to the war and up in to the first early months of the war, at which time it was withdrawn from service as it wasn't working out.

Anyhow, the article had a photograph of Canadian troops in the trenches early in the war, and they were wearing particularly ugly large berets. Who wore those, and for how long?

[John Tremelling]

I have only just seen this thread, thus have some catching up to do.

I have seen a couple of referrences to 'hats'. As an early RSM of mine would shout, "Women wear hats, men wear caps, helmets, berets or bonnets (he was Highland Light Infantry, and in any case would not survive in todays PC world) as appropriate."

The British equivelent to your Garrison Cap is correctly a Field Service Cap, dating to the late 19th Century, the type referred to as being capable of being pulled over the ears. Often referred to as a Side Cap, or Chip Bag Hat. It generally replaced the Pill Box Cap for stable duties and walking out. I believe the pill box hat evolved as a cap which was virtually un noticed as an encumbrence, but in an era when it was unthinkable for anyone not to wear headgear, let alone a soldier. It is still worn by some archaic units associated with the British Army. It, and the odd cap as shown by Trooper on May 28th probably evolved from the 'Muffin' cap of the Napoleonic era, some sort of cross between a cap and a beret. I would load photos of mine, but seem unable to do so and the only photo which I could quickly find online was

http://www.worcesteryeomanrycavalry.org.uk/Gallery.php

The odd cap alluded to by Trooper was the short lived Broderick Cap, much despised, a sort of cap without a peak worn by all services, but of course it has survived as the cap worn by Royal Navy ratings.

The beret was introduced into the British Army by the newly formed Tank Corps in the Great War as a practical form of headress for wear inside a tank. Copied from the French beret, the Royal Tank Regiment which evolved continue to wear Black berets, as opposed to the normal very dark blue, from the days when the insides of the early tanks were a mixture of burnt cordite and oil, when everything ended up black. RTR also wear black overalls, webbing, and leather work. I know that the WWII German Panzer crews also wore black, copied from RTR or evolved as similarly practical I know not.

A final anecdote of mine, as a young 16 year old Midshipman (I am a jack of all trades, have worn the Queens uniform in RAF blue, Navy blue, Police blue and khaki, could never make my mind up. I now re-enact various historic equestrian images, a born dresser-upper) I rushed up to the bridge for my very first lifeboat drill. Standing orders were that one would take ones cap, and lifejacket to such drills, other wear being whatever one was dressed in at the time. However, in my rush I did not think a cap to be necessary, thus arrived panting on the bridge. The crusty of Captain, who had served with Noah, looked at me and said " Tell me young man, do you really want to die without your cap on?" When I stuttered "No Sir", he kindly said, "Well be a good fellow and go and fetch it".

I was later to learn the value of a cap, in the event of actually taking to the boats, it A) denoted ones rank, and B) would have been usefull protection against sun or elements. I any case, from then on I always wore appropriate dress to whatever uniform I was in.

Perhaps the above may be of interest to some readers.

John T

[wkambic]

Clothes do make the man; or maybe they don't.

In 1971 USS INTREPID deployed to Europe for six months. There were lots of drills, one being "Broken Arrow" or "Broken Spear" which were drills involving damage to and comrpomise of nuclear weapons. During those drills our Marine Detachment was charged with security, which meant limiting access to certain areas and keeping people in other areas.

One area to "kept in" was the wardroom. During one memorable drill the alarm was sounded and the next thing we saw was a Marine wearing a bath towel around his waist, flip flops, a web belt, his cover, and a thin sheen of water. He stood at the main entrance of the space at port arms with his M-14. To the great credit of all the officers present, nobody laughed at him or even paid him any mind. Frankly, I never knew American Marines could turn as red as Royal Marine's dress coat, but this one did.

When the drill was over I never saw a Marine not under fire move that fast!!!!!!!!!!

I think the Armed Forces are about the last organized element of American society where headgear is routine. There are some religious groups, like a Amish, but they are few in number.

One place where you do find a lot of hats worn in the rural South. But, sadly, etiquette is lacking as many do not remove their hats indoors, even when eating in a restaurant. I consider that rather rude behavior (unless they're Jewish or Muslim). But, then, I'm an offender too on occasion because hat racks and pegs have disapeared from most public places.

[Pat Holscher]

I think the Armed Forces are about the last organized element of American society where headgear is routine.

That and police forces. Police forces in the US still all wear hats or caps, but the standards vary widely. Some forces wear ball caps, while others wear other more formal styles. A lot wear campaign hats.

Of course, campaign hats are the uniform hat of the Park Service.

Broad brimmed hats are as useful, as a uniform hat, as they ever were, but vehicles have taken a toll on their wear. They're not easy to wear in a vehicle, which has been cited as one of the reasons they've so declined in use since WWII. There's a lot to that view, as evidenced by policemen who've resorted to ball caps.

There are some religious groups, like a Amish, but they are few in number.

Hasidic Jews can also be added to that group. So much so that, in some parts of the US, the black Fedora is almost emblematic of them.

One place where you do find a lot of hats worn in the rural South. But, sadly, etiquette is lacking as many do not remove their hats indoors, even when eating in a restaurant. I consider that rather rude behavior (unless they're Jewish or Muslim). But, then, I'm an offender too on occasion because hat racks and pegs have disapeared from most public places.

This is also very true of the rural west. Indeed, cowboy hats have never disappeared from use, and are as much in use as ever. Occasionally you'll hear the very much un informed state "cowboys wear ball caps now", which is very similiar to "cowboys don't ride horses anymore", which is a view held by those who never see actual cowhands. In actuality, baseball caps are rare, at least in this region, amongst working hands, who invariably always wear cowboy hats for the same reasons that 19th Century hands did. Almost every working hand and rancher has two cowboy hats, one for work, and one for dress. The dress one becomes the working one at some point, and it's still the case that, given their protective value, that working hands will spend a fair amount for a good hat, just as they will for good boots.

In addition to cowhands, a lot of people who are associated with rural work or life will also wear cowboy hats here, adopting the style from actual hands. Cowboy hats have made significant inroads here back to this class, and to the those in their teens, and I see a lot of young people wearing cowboy hats now when they were only worn, in that age group, by ranch kids when I was that age (but they were definitely worn by ranch kids). Also, people who work in rural conditions, or play in them, will often wear them, depending upon the type of work or play. You'll also see "boonie caps" in that group. At least to an extent, people have become more aware of the dangers of the sun, and returned somewhat to hats and caps, although probably not as much as they ought to.

[Trooper]

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Full-Length-Un ... 286.c0.m14

[Pat Holscher]

I have only just seen this thread, thus have some catching up to do.

I have seen a couple of referrences to 'hats'. As an early RSM of mine would shout, "Women wear hats, men wear caps, helmets, berets or bonnets (he was Highland Light Infantry, and in any case would not survive in todays PC world) as appropriate."

The British equivelent to your Garrison Cap is correctly a Field Service Cap, dating to the late 19th Century, the type referred to as being capable of being pulled over the ears. Often referred to as a Side Cap, or Chip Bag Hat. It generally replaced the Pill Box Cap for stable duties and walking out. I believe the pill box hat evolved as a cap which was virtually un noticed as an encumbrence, but in an era when it was unthinkable for anyone not to wear headgear, let alone a soldier. It is still worn by some archaic units associated with the British Army. It, and the odd cap as shown by Trooper on May 28th probably evolved from the 'Muffin' cap of the Napoleonic era, some sort of cross between a cap and a beret. I would load photos of mine, but seem unable to do so and the only photo which I could quickly find online was

http://www.worcesteryeomanrycavalry.org.uk/Gallery.php

The odd cap alluded to by Trooper was the short lived Broderick Cap, much despised, a sort of cap without a peak worn by all services, but of course it has survived as the cap worn by Royal Navy ratings.

The beret was introduced into the British Army by the newly formed Tank Corps in the Great War as a practical form of headress for wear inside a tank. Copied from the French beret, the Royal Tank Regiment which evolved continue to wear Black berets, as opposed to the normal very dark blue, from the days when the insides of the early tanks were a mixture of burnt cordite and oil, when everything ended up black. RTR also wear black overalls, webbing, and leather work. I know that the WWII German Panzer crews also wore black, copied from RTR or evolved as similarly practical I know not.

A final anecdote of mine, as a young 16 year old Midshipman (I am a jack of all trades, have worn the Queens uniform in RAF blue, Navy blue, Police blue and khaki, could never make my mind up. I now re-enact various historic equestrian images, a born dresser-upper) I rushed up to the bridge for my very first lifeboat drill. Standing orders were that one would take ones cap, and lifejacket to such drills, other wear being whatever one was dressed in at the time. However, in my rush I did not think a cap to be necessary, thus arrived panting on the bridge. The crusty of Captain, who had served with Noah, looked at me and said " Tell me young man, do you really want to die without your cap on?" When I stuttered "No Sir", he kindly said, "Well be a good fellow and go and fetch it".

I was later to learn the value of a cap, in the event of actually taking to the boats, it A) denoted ones rank, and B) would have been usefull protection against sun or elements. I any case, from then on I always wore appropriate dress to whatever uniform I was in.

Perhaps the above may be of interest to some readers.

John T

Very interesting, thanks!

[Pat Holscher]

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Full-Length-Un ... 286.c0.m14

So what sort of cap was that?

[Pat Holscher]

I'm pretty sure there's two threads on this topic, and my query doesn't really quite fit here, but rather than start a new topic, I'll just post it here.

I was reading an article in the CMH journal about a kepi in the authors collection, and he mentioned that kepis weren't officially adopted until 1872.

Is that right? 1872 seems awfully late.

Is that kepi like hat, but with the bigger crown (if that's the right word) that every Union soldier seems to have at some point not a kepi?

[Jim Bewley]

I'm pretty sure there's two threads on this topic, and my query doesn't really quite fit here, but rather than start a new topic, I'll just post it here.

I was reading an article in the CMH journal about a kepi in the authors collection, and he mentioned that kepis weren't officially adopted until 1872.

Is that right? 1872 seems awfully late.

Is that kepi like hat, but with the bigger crown (if that's the right word) that every Union soldier seems to have at some point not a kepi?

I think you are talking about the "forge cap", Pat. I could be wrong, but I believe it was taken from a French design and originally had a stiff liner to make it stand up. These were hard to keep replacing, so they went with the floppy look instead. The hats that officers wore were shorter and often called "kepis".

Jim

[Pat Holscher]

I think you are talking about the "forge cap", Pat. I could be wrong, but I believe it was taken from a French design and originally had a stiff liner to make it stand up. These were hard to keep replacing, so they went with the floppy look instead. The hats that officers wore were shorter and often called "kepis".

Jim

I was thinking that it was the forage cap also, but now I'm confused. The forage cap and the kepi are similar of course, with the forage cap being "deeper" and being a bit more functional. When was that cap officially adopted?

[Pat Holscher]

I think you are talking about the "forge cap", Pat. I could be wrong, but I believe it was taken from a French design and originally had a stiff liner to make it stand up. These were hard to keep replacing, so they went with the floppy look instead. The hats that officers wore were shorter and often called "kepis".

Jim

I was thinking that it was the forage cap also, but now I'm confused. The forage cap and the kepi are similar of course, with the forage cap being "deeper" and being a bit more functional. When was that cap officially adopted?

I'd also note that the author notes a "chasseurs cap" being adopted at West Point in the 1830s, and he associates this with a competing pattern of official hap. I guess I'd have to view this as the forage cap.

I've read it claimed that the forage cap was designed the way it was to serve as a type of bucket if you needed it to be. Therefore, it aided in foraging. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that claim? The crowns were quite deep.

Also, what is the prior type of cap called. Not the Hardee hat, but the cap that has stuck around as full dress wear, in modified form. A Wheelhouse cap?

[Rick Throckmorton]

I have always read the term as simply nomenclature. Yes, the "forage cap" was adopted as part of the 1872 pattern uniform items, but I think the term was to simply differentiate that cap from the other headgear of the period. The forage cap was a sort of fatigue cap that was to be worn in undress type formations, fatique, and other labor duties. The campaign hat was for use generally away from the post to protect the wearer from a wide array of elements that they could not excape from. The dress helmet was used for formal occassions, mostly around the post. Three diffrerent types of issued headgear merited three different official terms for them. The cap in discussion was of a kepi design, which of course was of French origin as was much of the uniform and other equipments of the era. Kepis of various designs had been in use in the American army for some time as had been other types of forage caps, like the "bummer"(similar, but with more cloth in the crown, which often was very unkept in appearance, earning the sobriquet, "bummer"). The Americans, being a young national entity, generally looked to the European continental militaries, especially the British, the Germans, and the French, for hints and guidance in dress and equipment.
Rick T.