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We've had a fair amount of discussion about the Armeesattel 25 over the years, but there's still a lot about it that has not been brought up. Indeed, I'm still pretty curious about the general history of German army saddles. Here's some areas I wonder about pertaining to them.

Was the Armeesattel 25 a 1925 variant of a preexisting pattern? If so, what was the preexisting pattern?

When was the style of saddle which the Armeesattel 25 is first adopted, and how many changes did it go through before the 1925 final version?

Was the Armeesattel issued to officers and ems, or is there a seperate group of German officer's saddles?

Anybody familiar with the artillery use of the Armeesattel? I know that artillery units did use it, and I've seen photos of German soldiers riding horses in artillery teams. For that reason I assume there's a way to make the Armeesattel work well with the artillery rig, but I've never seen any discussion of that.

Pat

Also, how many other nations used a varaint of this saddle and what is its original source? Seems we had photos of a Hungarian military saddle up which were pretty close. What other nations used it? Was the photo of hte Swiss saddle we had up a while back depicting a smiliar saddle?

Pat

Pat, I have very limited knowledge about it but believe itis a good design saddle. We will have to get Ron B. to commment on this I will try to email him. One thing I know is that the 25 comes apart easy for repair. I believe these were hand stiched. The 25 has a new type tree from the ww1 model and has stuffed panels. The ww1 had a numnah type pad. The 25 is a little more suited for jumping than the mac but is a heavier saddle. I believe and will stand correction but the hussar type saddle was used by germany until the 1890s then a new model was produced until the WW1 model then the 25. Officers saddles I believe were english type. One thing about the 25 was that it was field proven and survive hard use. I occasional ride a 25 on a heavier type horse and it's ok. Wonder how many of them produced? regards,Tom

Originally posted by tmarsh
<br />Pat, I have very limited knowledge about it but believe itis a good design saddle. We will have to get Ron B. to commment on this I will try to email him. One thing I know is that the 25 comes apart easy for repair. I believe these were hand stiched. The 25 has a new type tree from the ww1 model and has stuffed panels. The ww1 had a numnah type pad. The 25 is a little more suited for jumping than the mac but is a heavier saddle. I believe and will stand correction but the hussar type saddle was used by germany until the 1890s then a new model was produced until the WW1 model then the 25. Officers saddles I believe were english type. One thing about the 25 was that it was field proven and survive hard use. I occasional ride a 25 on a heavier type horse and it's ok. Wonder how many of them produced? regards,Tom

Tom,
Stubben produced the Siegfried in 1894, it was made specifically for a Lancer unit from Krefeld, Germany. Other units adopted it as well as use by Officers. That design was produced in numbers for the German Army in WW I. They also produced AS 25's and harness through WW II, but quite frankly that is a period they are very reluctant to discuss. The original shop was bombed in WW II and many records were destroyed, so it is hard to determine production.

There seems to be a number of Armies that adopted some variation of the AS 25, and most seem to have been allies of Germany. When glanced at the Japanese saddle is a close copy if the AS 25, surely there was some influence from Germany. (That is only my speculation not supported fact.)

Regards,
Ron Smith

Ron, Wasn't there a Cav. school in Hanover. Itseems I have an old paper that has an article in it with some wood prints I'll have to dig out and review but isn't Passier located there. I suspect that Passier and sons manufactored military and officers saddles also. Do you know much about officers saddles? I have purchased from aretired dr. who was in the german army a saddle whom he purchased from his riding instructor whom was a ex hungarian cav officer. Sounds like a long story but it supposingly is an officers saddle. Nice saddle with linen panels with Chek maker. very few dees. Also Ron is there any german cav manuals arround? RegardsTom

Ron,

Ron Smith wrote:

There seems to be a number of Armies that adopted some variation of the AS 25, and most seem to have been allies of Germany. When glanced at the Japanese saddle is a close copy if the AS 25, surely there was some influence from Germany. (That is only my speculation not supported fact.)

I noticed the same thing a couple of years ago while cataloging what was supposed to be a Japanese saddle. It looked remarkably like its German counterpart, but its provenance was Japanese.

Didn't the Constabulary use German equipment after the War?

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>

Couvi, According to an article in "Western Horseman March of 67" Constabulary post war used German Horses with US equipment.They used 28 s for everyday and field use. With Phillips for dress occasions. Regards Tom

The Circle C Cowboys and others used German saddles until they could get US saddles shipped over. Once a supply of US saddles were in place nop more enemy equipment was authorized for usage.

Tom, yes there was a large Cavalry School at Hanover and Passier did make some saddles for German officers. How many is unknown, they to are not real keen on discussing that subject.

A large number of German officers rode in saddles that resemble our modrn day VSS style saddles. However the knee block ws usually on the outside of the flap/skirt. The Wotan by Stubben was specifically a Officers saddle and later became a popular Polo saddle. In fact it is still popular in many Polo cirlces.

I have a custom Wotan (pronounced Votan) VSD/Special for service work and it is readily understnadable why it was so popular with Army riders.

There was as much flexibilty with German officers in saddle equipment as there was with US officers. The wealthier the officer the better the saddle, and the Germans had the luxury of having some of the best saddle makers in world in Germany.

Couvi,
Once when inspecting some goodies at Ft. Riley we came across a Japanese Army Surgeons field manual. It was in German with Japanese notes scribbled inside at various points. Ocassionally you can come across a pair of Japanese Officer boots with German maker marks in the shaft. It is uncommon but they do exist. Suposedly some Japanese officers trained at Hanover as wel as Saumur.

Regards,
Ron Smith

Originally posted by Couvi
Ron,

Ron Smith wrote:

<i>There seems to be a number of Armies that adpoted some variation of the AS 25, and most seem to have been allies of Germany. When glanced at the Japanese saddle is a close copy if the AS 25, surely thre was some influence from Germany. (That is only my speculation not supported fact.)

I noticed the same thing a couple of years ago while cataloging what was supposed to be a Japanese saddle. It looked remarkably like its German counterpart, but its provenance was Japanese.

Didn't the Constabulary use German equipment after the War?

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>

I've also noted the similar appearance, although I do not know about the construction. That might be more telling.

If it is a German influenced item, it is likely a late one, or an unusual one. The Japanese military actually only had close associations with the Germans after WWI. Other than rifles, which like many other nations drew on the Mauser 98, the only other area which I know the Japanese developed something with German influence was in aircraft. There may be other examples, but I'm unaware of them. The saddle would be an interesting exception.

The strange bedfellows rule provides some interesting examples in connection with the Germans and Japanese in the orient. The Germans maintained an influential military mission with the Nationalist Chinese that did influence quite a bit about their army. Nazi Germany, in addition to K98k rifles, actually sold a few tanks to the Nationalist for use against the Japanese. And the Nationalist Chinese uniforms, except where supplied by the British or Americans, closely resemble the German ones upon which they were based. They even wore the coal scuttle helmet so strongly associated with the Germans at that time. The German military mission to the Nationalist Chinese was actually only withdrawn after the Japanese complaints about it finally had some effect.

Originally posted by Ron Smith
Tom,
Stubben produced the Siegfried in 1894, it was made specifically for a Lancer unit from Krefeld, Germany. Other units adopted it as well as use by Officers. That design was produced in numbers for the German Army in WW I. They also produced AS 25's and harness through WW II, but quite frankly that is a period they are very reluctant to discuss. The original shop was bombed in WW II and many records were destroyed, so it is hard to determine production.

I'd forgotten, although I believe it has been mentioned here before in connection with German saddles, that up through WWI some of the old pre Imperial German states retained some unique items for units from their regions. I wonder how this might might have impacted what all might have been bought by mounted units up through WWI.

Pat

We've been very fortunate recently to acquire a lot of new information on the Armeesattel 25, thanks to Tom and Nicole. We did have some older threads, which are on the old, old archive, which are not currently up, and at some future point, we might link them in, but we even so, we have a great deal information now, than we used to.

This brings up a topic that we've only explored a little, but which we still don't know much about. What was the origin of the Armeesattel type of saddle, and how far back does it go? In other words, if the Armeesattel 25 is the contemporary of the M1928 McClellan, what would be the Armeesattel equivalent of the M1859 McCellan. That is, the founder of the military lineage?

And what pattern was in use in WWI?

I am not sure if my understanding is correct, but in German army the Armeesattel before nr. 25 is quite difficult to explain:
In the years before 1889 were different "bocksaddels" used, in the type of hungary, danish and german-saddels, but every cavalry-regiment used "one" type of saddle. In 1889 was produced the Armeesattel 89 - it looks similarly the nr. 25.
In WW1 the German cavalry used bocksaddels and Armeesattel 89. After war bocksaddels were segregate and riders in the Reichswehr used Armeesattel 89 and Armeesattel 25.

Horrido!

Nicole

Reiter wrote:I am not sure if my understanding is correct, but in German army the Armeesattel before nr. 25 is quite difficult to explain:
In the years before 1889 were different "bocksaddels" used, in the type of hungary, danish and german-saddels, but every cavalry-regiment used "one" type of saddle. In 1889 was produced the Armeesattel 89 - it looks similarly the nr. 25.
In WW1 the German cavalry used bocksaddels and Armeesattel 89. After war bocksaddels were segregate and riders in the Reichswehr used Armeesattel 89 and Armeesattel 25.

Horrido!

Nicole

So then, considering only those saddles before 1925, was the German military saddle from 1889 until 1925 the Armeesattel 89? That is, there were no other models between 1889 and 1925?

And the Armeesattel 89 would generally be of the same type as the Armeesattel 25, with the 25 having some differences or improvements over the 25?

What's a bocksaddel?

So then, considering only those saddles before 1925, was the German military saddle from 1889 until 1925 the Armeesattel 89? That is, there were no other models between 1889 and 1925?

Yes, the official model before Armeesattel 25 ist Armeesattel 89 - yes, you can say that nr. 25 is the improvement of nr. 89. And Armeesattel 25 and 89 are on the same principle as the Bocksattel, but were improved for a better feeling to the horse and make the packing easier. The usual Bocksattel had the disadvantage, that the rider had not enough close contact to the horse.
For an example: one difference between 25 and 89 are the pads that are on 25 from Leinen/woven material and on 89 from Filz/felt, what was an problem to make the saddle suitable for more horses. Also the buckles were all the years changed on Armeesattel 89, the weigh of 25 was smaller than from 89 because of the use from materials of smaller weight on the Sattelbaum/saddle tree.

But the some different types of Bocksattel were used in the time before and after the production of Armeesattel 89, in WW1 until the establish of the Reichswehr. So early Reichswehr used only Armeesattel 89, but German cavalry before 1918 as a whole used different saddles.

What's a bocksaddel?

Hm, here is a link from our member Kaiserulan from Panzer-Archiv with pictures from the Bocksattel. http://www.reitverein-guenzburg.de/Baye ... aettel.jpg
Left is the hungary saddle and rigt the danish bock. Both were used before Armeesattel 89. There was a third bock, the German saddle, Deutscher Sattel, and looks quite the same as this austrian bock.


I hope, I was able to help you.

Horrido!

Nicole

Reiter wrote:

So then, considering only those saddles before 1925, was the German military saddle from 1889 until 1925 the Armeesattel 89? That is, there were no other models between 1889 and 1925?

Yes, the official model before Armeesattel 25 ist Armeesattel 89 - yes, you can say that nr. 25 is the improvement of nr. 89. And Armeesattel 25 and 89 are on the same principle as the Bocksattel, but were improved for a better feeling to the horse and make the packing easier. The usual Bocksattel had the disadvantage, that the rider had not enough close contact to the horse.
For an example: one difference between 25 and 89 are the pads that are on 25 from Leinen/woven material and on 89 from Filz/felt, what was an problem to make the saddle suitable for more horses. Also the buckles were all the years changed on Armeesattel 89, the weigh of 25 was smaller than from 89 because of the use from materials of smaller weight on the Sattelbaum/saddle tree.

But the some different types of Bocksattel were used in the time before and after the production of Armeesattel 89, in WW1 until the establish of the Reichswehr. So early Reichswehr used only Armeesattel 89, but German cavalry before 1918 as a whole used different saddles.

Why were there variants of the Bocksattel and the nr. 89 in use at the same time? Were the non nr 89 saddles retained from earlier procurements, or did different types of cavalry use different saddles, etc?

What's a bocksaddel?

Hm, here is a link from our member Kaiserulan from Panzer-Archiv with pictures from the Bocksattel. http://www.reitverein-guenzburg.de/Baye ... aettel.jpg
Left is the hungary saddle and rigt the danish bock. Both were used before Armeesattel 89. There was a third bock, the German saddle, Deutscher Sattel, and looks quite the same as this austrian bock.

Were the Hungarian and Danish bocks obtained from Austro-Hungaria and Denmark?

What does "bock" mean?

We've noted in the past quite a few different versions of this family of saddles, and I think somebody may have noted the Hungarian ancestry before. Based on that, should we assume that this was originally a Hungarian type of saddles whose use was picked up by various nations in Central Europe?

I think Bocksaddle is the same like "sella a basto" for us Italians which roughly translates to "Packsaddle".

If you look at the drawing of the trees posted, you see those massive threes which go well above the withers, with big arch and cantles like they were packsaddles. The Italian "Scafarda" is also made very like this (it is said to be a variation of an austrian saddle) and its tree looks very similar to the left one in the aquarell drawing linked above.

It is also worth mentioning that "Hungarian saddle" is often understood as another name for "Dragoon saddle".

I hope I'm correct in my understanding.

Regards

Were the Hungarian and Danish bocks obtained from Austro-Hungaria and Denmark?

Hm, I cant answer this and have nothing found in my books about these question, but I think they were only so called, because they were produced on principe of the models, which were used in Hungary and Denmark.

Bocksaddles have sometimes a tree with moveable boards, so that the tree is albe to adapt on different horses.

We've noted in the past quite a few different versions of this family of saddles, and I think somebody may have noted the Hungarian ancestry before. Based on that, should we assume that this was originally a Hungarian type of saddles whose use was picked up by various nations in Central Europe?

Yes, you should.

I think Bocksaddle is the same like "sella a basto"

I dont know the "sella a basto". Do you have a foto or link where I can watch it?
The Bocksattel is no Packsaddle but the trees of both are maybe the same principe.

Horrido!

Nicole

Reiter wrote:

I think Bocksaddle is the same like "sella a basto"

I dont know the "sella a basto". Do you have a foto or link where I can watch it?
The Bocksattel is no Packsaddle but the trees of both are maybe the same principe.

Horrido!

Nicole

"Basto" is a Packsaddle like the ones used on mules. "Sella a basto" indicates a saddle for riding purpoise made "like" a packsaddle, so with a very robust tree with adjustable cushions in order to fit to various animal's size, wich rests rather "above" than "around" the horse's torso. You can get an impression of it here http://www.alfa-tec.it/scafardax.htm

luigi wrote:

Reiter wrote:

I think Bocksaddle is the same like "sella a basto"

I dont know the "sella a basto". Do you have a foto or link where I can watch it?
The Bocksattel is no Packsaddle but the trees of both are maybe the same principe.

Horrido!

Nicole

"Basto" is a Packsaddle like the ones used on mules. "Sella a basto" indicates a saddle for riding purpoise made "like" a packsaddle, so with a very robust tree with adjustable cushions in order to fit to various animal's size, wich rests rather "above" than "around" the horse's torso. You can get an impression of it here http://www.alfa-tec.it/scafardax.htm

Is this saddle close to the old Italian military pattern?

Pat Holscher wrote:Is this saddle close to the old Italian military pattern?

Yes Pat, quite close it is. The saddle was adopted early at beginning of XX sec. (1912 IIRC) and is also known as "Sella del Frate" ("del Frate" saddle) from the officer who designed it, Settimio del Frate. It should be a variation to an earlier design of the '60ies of XIX sec. and fairly close to Austrian and Hungarian designs.

As a side note: in 1927 the mod. "ventisette" i.e. "twentyseven" was adopted in the Ital. Army. I think it is quite close to Armeesattel '25. Anyway Italian cavalry entered war with troopers mainly on the "del Frate" saddle and officer on private owned or "27" saddle: quite a mixed bag I think.

Regards

Thank you luigi for the link and this beautiful saddles! Yes, these saddle is a so called "Bocksattel". I didnt know that such saddles are still manufactured.

Horrido!

Nicole