Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[Pat Holscher]

Pat it is good to see that report, which I have not seen for a few years, you tend to forget these things. It is all the more important to me as this is the 36 aniversary of the creation of Grey's. And with friends and former soldiers, now in the twilight of their lives it becomes more important that they are remembered. I would like to thank the forum for retaining some of its history.

Is there an Anniversary Day for the unit's founding?

[roy elderkin]

Pat Yes it is today 6th March 1976.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat Yes it is today 6th March 1976.

I should have realized that from your earlier post! Happy (although no doubt mixed with sadness) Anniversary!

[Pat Holscher]

Pat Yes it is today 6th March 1976.

I've just added the date to our Calendar thread, along with a thanks to the various Grey's who have participated here, and most particularly to you, for all you have shared with us.

[roy elderkin]

Pat Thank you behalf of all Grey's wherever they maybe

[Jim Bewley]

I've just added the date to our Calendar thread, along with a thanks to the various Grey's who have participated here, and most particularly to you, for all you have shared with us.

I will, most heartily, second that.

Jim

[wkambic]

Since the Sun is not yet over yardarm I'll have charge my glass with orange juice and drink to the Greys and their efforts.

[Brian P.]

Here, here!!

[Kelton Oliver]

To the Grey's!

[Pat Holscher]

Here's one Roy sent showing the dress uniform.



And here's a color one of Roy in the dress uniform here:


Pat

Roy, was the dress uniform closely based on a preexisting British uniform, or on a uniform with a historical precedent?

[roy elderkin]

To some extent they do, the two major regt's of the Rhodesian Army were the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles} and the RLI [Rhodesian Light Infantry] both Regt's were affiliated to the British Light Infantry, Royal Green Jackets hence the badge of the RLI is the infantry bugle, the RAR is the shield, assagai and knobkerry from the Matabele region. The original colours were Green and White , jackets green insignia white. When Zimbabwe came about it was changed to Green and Yellow, as seen on the photo. The bush hat was symbolic, in that only the RAR and former members of the old Federal Army wore them, the rest wore berets. But they do go back historicaly, when the only form of headress was the bush hat, this headdress was adopted by Grey's as a formal no one dress from the original Grey's. The BSAPolice wore them but were known as stable hats, otherwise they wore pithhelmets, until they changed to peaked caps, although the Pith Helmet was issued it was rarely worn, except by the mounted escort.

[Pat Holscher]

To some extent they do, the two major regt's of the Rhodesian Army were the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles} and the RLI [Rhodesian Light Infantry] both Regt's were affiliated to the British Light Infantry, Royal Green Jackets hence the badge of the RLI is the infantry bugle, the RAR is the shield, assagai and knobkerry from the Matabele region. The original colours were Green and White , jackets green insignia white. When Zimbabwe came about it was changed to Green and Yellow, as seen on the photo. The bush hat was symbolic, in that only the RAR and former members of the old Federal Army wore them, the rest wore berets. But they do go back historicaly, when the only form of headress was the bush hat, this headdress was adopted by Grey's as a formal no one dress from the original Grey's. The BSAPolice wore them but were known as stable hats, otherwise they wore pithhelmets, until they changed to peaked caps, although the Pith Helmet was issued it was rarely worn, except by the mounted escort.

Thanks Roy.

I wondered to what extent the dress uniform relied upon British precedent. To the American eye, the uniforms depicted here look very British.

Allow me to ask an ignorant question. What was the "old Federal Army"?

The use of the bush hat is interesting. It has a very widespread history of use, but it tends to have become strongly associated with certain armies or units. This is one such example, and we can see a precedent of similar hats being worn back to the Boer War by at least South African units. Of course, the same type of hat is very strongly associated with the Australians, who limited it to dress and semi dress use post World War Two, but who very recently have allowed it to return to use with their utilities, as they're worried about skin cancer and it still shields the sun as effectively as ever. And of course the Gurkhas use what is basically the same hat. At various points in time, it's use as widespread in the British Army, sometimes unofficially.

[roy elderkin]

Rhodesia did not have a standing Army, it had two services the RAR and C Sqn SAS,during World war 2 the Rhodesians and New Zealanders were mostly used in what was called LRDG [Long range desert group] the forunner of the SAS in North Africa, and some ancilliary units. During the Federal days England was responsible for training, and almost all were British Army Officers. The federal army consisted until its break up in1961 the Federation of Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia [Zambia] and Nyasaland {Malawi]. The BSAPolice were refered to as the first line of defence, and the army was was always in support of it. At the break of the Federation a new Regt was formed the RLI, Rhodesia now began to have what was regarded as a standing army.
The Fed Army used the bush hat which was Khaki with a sand coloured pugaree with hackle ,closed at the side, RAR's was green with hackle also closed athe side.

The headress goes back to before the Boer War, when it was used as protection from the sun. It was adopted by the British Army after the first Boer War, as well as the khaki coloured pith helmet. I think the Australian's refered to them as slouch hats, in India correct me if is not correct, the Pith helmet was refered to as the Topie. Like all headress it is usualy a matter of adapting or adopting other forms of headress.

[Pat Holscher]

Rhodesia did not have a standing Army, it had two services the RAR and C Sqn SAS,during World war 2 the Rhodesians and New Zealanders were mostly used in what was called LRDG [Long range desert group] the forunner of the SAS in North Africa, and some ancilliary units. During the Federal days England was responsible for training, and almost all were British Army Officers. The federal army consisted until its break up in1961 the Federation of Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia [Zambia] and Nyasaland {Malawi]. The BSAPolice were refered to as the first line of defence, and the army was was always in support of it. At the break of the Federation a new Regt was formed the RLI, Rhodesia now began to have what was regarded as a standing army.
The Fed Army used the bush hat which was Khaki with a sand coloured pugaree with hackle ,closed at the side, RAR's was green with hackle also closed athe side.

The headress goes back to before the Boer War, when it was used as protection from the sun. It was adopted by the British Army after the first Boer War, as well as the khaki coloured pith helmet. I think the Australian's refered to them as slouch hats, in India correct me if is not correct, the Pith helmet was refered to as the Topie. Like all headress it is usualy a matter of adapting or adopting other forms of headress.

I have a message pertaining to the brimmed hats in this thread that pertains to both this topic and the old slouch hat thread, so I'm going to post a quote from here, depicting your dress uniform, in the slouch hat thread, so that can be explored there. Interesting item.

[roy elderkin]

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, looks to be a happy occasion in the bush. What's the story on this one?

[roy elderkin]

Pat This was part of the elections in 1979, when Rhodesia tried to make up a Govt with the aid of Bishop Abel Muzarawo, another of the African factions. The British Govt sent out officials to monitor the elections, plus British Policeman to see to the Polling stations. We were required to protect the British Police and ensure, the polling stations were not attacked.
The photo is a section of Rhodesian Millitary Police, who I was with, the guy in the light shirt is a regular policeman. It took place in the Kandao TTL, about 100 miles outside of the capital. It was a ter hotbed, who were trying to disrupt the elections, there were some firefights around us and on us, but they could not penertrate our cordons, and a number of ters were killed.

We looked happy because, the elctions were over and we were stood down, to return to our units.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat This was part of the elections in 1979, when Rhodesia tried to make up a Govt with the aid of Bishop Abel Muzarawo, another of the African factions. The British Govt sent out officials to monitor the elections, plus British Policeman to see to the Polling stations. We were required to protect the British Police and ensure, the polling stations were not attacked.
The photo is a section of Rhodesian Millitary Police, who I was with, the guy in the light shirt is a regular policeman. It took place in the Kandao TTL, about 100 miles outside of the capital. It was a ter hotbed, who were trying to disrupt the elections, there were some firefights around us and on us, but they could not penertrate our cordons, and a number of ters were killed.

We looked happy because, the elctions were over and we were stood down, to return to our units.

So the British government participated in that election as well? I didn't know that.

I have it in mind that the one that brought Mugabe to power was arranged through a British mediated effort. I had no idea that there'd been a prior one with some British participation.

It sounds like the polling stations were in fact attacked.

[roy elderkin]

No the cordons were a able to intercept before they could get close enough, those on the outer cordons were. My own cordon was caught in a fire fight between fire force and the ters, we were in the middle so it was heads and bums down at the bottom of the trenches. A number of ters were killed, but the polling went ahead.

[Pat Holscher]

No the cordons were a able to intercept before they could get close enough, those on the outer cordons were. My own cordon was caught in a fire fight between fire force and the ters, we were in the middle so it was heads and bums down at the bottom of the trenches. A number of ters were killed, but the polling went ahead.

Were there two British brokered peace agreements then?