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NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2001 8:21 am
by Pat Holscher
A question for those of you familiar with NWP tack (George, Larry). Were their standard accessories for the NWP stock saddle that was used for a period of time by the Mounties? Saddlebags? Pommel bags? Scabbard for the carbine?

Also, what was a Mounties typical field burdon at this time? We probably have a relatively good feel for what a typical trooper may have carried at the turn of the 19th-20th Century, but what about a Mountie?

Pat

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2001 9:42 pm
by G.KUSH.UE
Hello Pat,

Since the Mounted Police were not a military organization the individual rider's load was not anywhere near as extensive or heavy as that carried by his American cavalry counterpart.

Generally speaking, the MP operated on a patrol system, patrols of just one or two individuals. After the initial years of organization, 1873-1874, the Force seldom paraded or marched in any strength beyond that of a single division (company). In fact, the last time the entire force paraded as a single unit was July 8, 1874, the day they left Ft. Dufferin on the historic "March West." That was the last regimental parade and I believe that it was only about the fourth or fifth such parade ever held. To this day, the Force has never been reunited.

When the MP rode on patrol they often covered vast distances and were away from their posts and detachments for long periods of time, so they routinely travelled in pairs in light spring wagon pulled by a team, with a bedroll, stove, tent, provisions, etc. I know that this is not the popular image of the lone Mountie as celebrated in Cdn. history, but sometimes truth hurts. That's not to say that there were no long patrols of solitary Mounties on horseback, there were plenty, but wagons were the most popular and practical method of transportation for patrol work.

After settlement single patrols increased in number because the Mounties could stop with ranchers and homesteaders. Eventually the patrol system became so well developed and organized Mounties seldom found it necessary to camp out for even a single night.

To verify the fact that a Mountie did indeed complete his assigned patrol, the settlers, ranchers, etc., were required by law to sign his patrol sheet.

So as you can see, the system allowed the Mounties to travel in a relatively light manner.

During that period when the Western stock saddle was in use, the basic NWMP horse equipments, saddle & bridle aside, consisted of a pair of Cantinas, which are large pommel wallets; a pair of small saddle bags carried behind the cantle; a picket pin and rope; a greatcoat and or blanket; and a carbine sling that was slipped over the saddle horn. A halter was also worn under the bridle. There was no issue canteen, cup or mess gear, and the white linen haversack was hardly ever worn in the field. There was no issue grain bag and when grain was carried, it was in a small sack tied to the saddle. There was no provision made for the sabre, and the lance was not carried in the field. There was no regulation saddle cloth and no white rope tie down. There were also no regulation curry combs, brushes, etc. There were no flags, guidons, banners, etc. and hen marching in company formation no national colours were carried at the head of the column.

The MP carried their Winchester Model 1876 carbines (calibre .45/75 not .45/70)across the saddle "frontier" fashion. Contrary to Hollywood this method of carrying the rifle was the most popular method of carrying a long arm on the frontier, especially during the early years when hostile Indians were often encountered.

I have to laugh when I see all of these U.S. Cavalry reenactors charging around with carbine slings, boots, sockets, etc. The single most popular method of carrying the Springfield carbine in the field was directly in front of the pommel, crosswise.It beat heck out of the saddles but that's what they did. The regimetal saddlers made slings to fit the McClellan and when slings were not available the troopers would remove the snap hooks from the regulation sling and attach it to their waistbelts, shift them forward and snap on their carbines.

As you know, I attended the 125th anniversary of the battle of the Little Bighorn last month and I never saw a single reenactor carrying his carbine across the saddle the way the boys of the real 7th Cavalry did back in 1876. I also never saw a single white canvas stable suit. However, I was pleased when I saw an old acquaintance from California using the pendant-loop (for pistol cartridges) in the correct manner.

Cordially,

George

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2001 7:52 am
by Pat Holscher
George,

Many thanks, very illuminating as always.

Some time ago I saw reference to the habit of Mounties in the 19th Century carrying their carbines in that fashion in an official report. I'd have to look it back up, but what I seem to recall is that the author didn't approve of it, but found that it was consistently done.

Pat

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2001 12:06 pm
by G.KUSH.UE
Pat,

You're right about that particular NWMP report. I've also read several U.S. Army reports that voiced the same concern. Due to the constant movement (jarring) of the carbine it knocked heck out of the pommel. I've seen several old saddles where the damage is quite evident. Still, it was a very fast and efficient way to carry a carbine, especially in hostile country. It also relieved the rider of the weight of the weapon. The MP even had their own special carbine drill to facilitate this method of carrying the carbine and it was pretty sharp when done in unison. Anyone that doubts the popularity of carrying the carbine across the saddle should check out the artwork of Frederic Remington or read some first-person memoirs. There are also some great photographs of cavalry in the field during the summer of '76 and whole companies of cavalry are carrying their carbines across the saddle "frontier" fashion. That's not to say that slings are not in evidence, they are, but it wasn't the most popular method.

I should also mention that this method of carrying the carbine was also very hard on the weapon itself. The stocks (in front of the trigger guard) took a terrible beating and this sort of damage is quite evident in many surviving weapons. I've often seen this damage attributed to hard use by Indians but it's simply not consistant with their method of riding and carrying weapons. The damage was actually caused before the weapons fell into Indian hands and they often tried to repair it with rawhide, bucksin, etc.

Originally the Mounties had a lot of damage done to their Snider-Enfield & Winchester carbines. Their solution was to develop a special sling to fit over the saddle horn of their stock saddles. It was a big improvement but you can still see damage to the receivers caused by constant jarring, which also caused screws to come lose and rear sights to be knocked out of line.

Cordially,

George

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2001 9:00 pm
by Pat Holscher
That reminds me that the Whitman equipments, when first introduced, included a carbine loop that facillitated carrying the carbine over the pommel. That must have been a concession to actual practice.

Pat

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:11 pm
by G.KUSH.UE
Pat,

I havn't had time to dig through my files to find all of my copies of the various U.S. & Cdn. reports re: carbines, but I was able to find one. Here's a brief quote:

Hdqs. Dept. of Dakota
Office of Ord. Officer
St. Paul, Sept. 29, 1876

To Chief of Ord. etc, etc.

A great number of cavalrymen carry their carbines in loops on the pommel of the saddle ... Some better method should be devised, for there is great probability that the constant jolting against the pommel will in time affect the serviceablity of the weapon.

VRYOS
O.E. Michaelis, Capt. of Ord.
Mil. Dept. of Dakota

Regards,

George

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2001 9:33 pm
by G.KUSH.UE
Pat,

Tonight I dug through my files and I pulled up the following. It's a handwriten extract from the (unpublished) diary of a Sergeant in the NWMP. Keep in mind that this was the outfit carried on the UP saddle.


Headquarters NWMP
Fort Macleod, BA
1st April 1876

Special Orders

Heavy marching order to be carried on the saddle. In blanket rolled behind, 1 towel, 1 piece of soap, 1 comb, and 1 pair overalls. In near wallet, 1 horseshoe, 30 rds. ball ammunition, oil, rags & sponge. In off wallet, 1 horseshoe, 10 rds. ball ammunition, curry comb, brushes, 1 pr. socks.

Coat & cape rolled over wallets.

Nose bag & picket pin on near side "D" ring.

Hobbles on off side "D" ring.

On man, Norfolk jacket, breeches, boots & spurs, gauntlets, helmet, revolver, carbine, 20 rds. ball ammunition in pouch. NCO's to wear [field] glasses, men to carry butcher's knfe in leg of boot (not on belt).

Cloaks rolled 40"
Capes rolled 34"
Blanket rolled 30"

All rolled with buckles on top, points to rear.

In the Valise (Baggage Wagon)

Near side.

1 pr drawers
1 shirt
1 pr socks
1 flannel vest
1 pr gloves
clothes brush
sewing kit

Off side.

1 pr overalls
1 shirt
1 pr socks
2 towels
2 shoe brushes

In the [Valise] flap.

Near side

1 bolt spur
1 ankle boot
1 tin blacking
curry comb
horse rubber
stable sponge
oil can

Off side.

1 bolt spur
1 ankle boot
tin of tooth paste
horse brush
pipe clay & sponge
stable bag

By Order
Jas. F. Mcleod
Asst. Commissioner


As you can see by the above. Even when in the field the Mounties had to keep spiffy and have their teeth brushed. I do like the part about the "butcher's knife in leg of boot." It's kind of swashbuckling - "Pirates of the Plains."

As previously stated, this is from a private diary & has never been published, but I thought I'd share it.

Cordially,

George

NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2001 9:48 pm
by Pat Holscher
George,

Wow! Thanks so much, what interesting information. I too was struck by the butcher knife in the boot, not the typical image we have of the spit and polish Mountie in the field. What a remarkable assortment of stuff.

Pat

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:59 am
by Pat Holscher
Bumped up by request.

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:58 pm
by Pat Holscher
Nice portrait of a Mountie, sent by Mike King:

Image

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:59 pm
by Hobie
Image
Image


I have been sent a couple of other photos in this regard but they are on the home computer...

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:17 pm
by Pat Holscher
Great photos, thanks!

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:53 am
by Couvi
Hobie wrote:Image


I have been sent a couple of other photos in this regard but they are on the home computer...
What rifle is that?

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:45 am
by mnhorse
Couvi wrote:
Hobie wrote:Image


I have been sent a couple of other photos in this regard but they are on the home computer...
What rifle is that?
The Winchester was offered in several MUSKET or military versions. Note the long barrel (30" perhaps) and the military "ladder" hind sight. Since the receiver is covered, it makes ID (by me anyway) difficult. As I recall, the models 1873, 1894 & 1895 were offered as a musket. There are US marked model 1895 in collections. The Russians ordered some also, but I'm not sure what model.
Richard

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:24 am
by Trooper
Winchester M1876 Northwest Mounted Police Carbine. 22" barrel, .45-75. NWMP stamp on buttstock. Flayderman # 5K-062.
hope this helps.

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:58 pm
by Couvi
Richard & Dušan,

Thanks. .45/75! What ever they hit stayed hit! :lol:

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:39 am
by Hobie
Good morning one and all,

With regards to NWMP equipment, I happen to have a reproduction 1876 Saddle Ring Carbine (SRC) and thought you might like to know a bit more about it. Some of the fellas who helped me learn about my rifle and the history of the NWMP and associated units are members of the National Congress of Old West Shooters (NCOWS) which is more of living history organization centered on the western frontier period. At CAS City, one can view a number of ORIGINAL rifles and carbines. For those interested parties, who might want reproduction gear, you might contact Rick Bachman (aka Buck Stinson) at Old West Reproductions. He has extensive experience in shooting, handling and with the accessories common to ORIGINAL 1876 Winchester rifles and carbines.

The rifles remained in official use to fairly late despite being loaded with black powder (never, so far as we know, with smokeless) and were used in every major "incident" in Canadian history during their issue period.

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:34 pm
by Pat Holscher
Couvi wrote:Richard & Dušan,

Thanks. .45/75! What ever they hit stayed hit! :lol:
I'm not terribly familiar with the performance of that cartridge. I wonder what it was like?

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:39 am
by Hobie
Pat Holscher wrote:
Couvi wrote:Richard & Dušan,

Thanks. .45/75! What ever they hit stayed hit! :lol:
I'm not terribly familiar with the performance of that cartridge. I wonder what it was like?
Allowing that this isn't a shooting forum, I will say that the .45-75 cartridge was developed by Winchester to give .45-70 Govt. equivalent ballistics in the too short for the .45-70 Winchester Model 1876 "Centennial" action. The .45-75 Win. used a 350 gr. bullet at about 1300 feet per second from the 1876 carbine. This was much better than the assault rifle of the time, the 1873 Winchester which used the .44 WCF (aka .44-40) cartridge which moved a 200 gr. bullet at about 1300 fps. Due to the weight of the firearm, recoil is not intimidating.

The 1876 carbine will hold 8 cartridges in the magazine (same as the US M1 Garand). It has an advantage in that you can load more cartridges while one is in the chamber (through the loading gate) while the Garand must be empty before you can reload. Those guys with an 1876 weren't so badly armed at all!

These gentlemen are at Queen Victoria's Jubilee in 1897.

Image

Re: NWP Stock Saddle Accessories; Mounties basic load.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:12 am
by Pat Holscher
Hobie wrote:
Pat Holscher wrote:
Couvi wrote:Richard & Dušan,

Thanks. .45/75! What ever they hit stayed hit! :lol:
I'm not terribly familiar with the performance of that cartridge. I wonder what it was like?
Allowing that this isn't a shooting forum, I will say that the .45-75 cartridge was developed by Winchester to give .45-70 Govt. equivalent ballistics in the too short for the .45-70 Winchester Model 1876 "Centennial" action. The .45-75 Win. used a 350 gr. bullet at about 1300 feet per second from the 1876 carbine. This was much better than the assault rifle of the time, the 1873 Winchester which used the .44 WCF (aka .44-40) cartridge which moved a 200 gr. bullet at about 1300 fps. Due to the weight of the firearm, recoil is not intimidating.

The 1876 carbine will hold 8 cartridges in the magazine (same as the US M1 Garand). It has an advantage in that you can load more cartridges while one is in the chamber (through the loading gate) while the Garand must be empty before you can reload. Those guys with an 1876 weren't so badly armed at all!

These gentlemen are at Queen Victoria's Jubilee in 1897.

Image
Very interesting. I looked it up in terms of performance, compared against the .45-70, and this is what I found:

.45-70 Government: 405 gr bullet in military loading. Muzzle velocity of 1350 fps, with energy of 1600 ft lbs. It'd penetrate 7.3" of white pine boarding at 700 yards. In 1882, Frankford Arsenal followed the lead of civilian manufacturers and introduced a 500 gr bullet. Of course, the load used for the cavalry's carbine only used 55 grs of black powder, rather than the 70 used for the rifle.

Sharps introduced a commercial variant of the .45-70 under its own name that used a 400 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1330 fps and energy of 1580 ft. lbs.

.45-75 Winchester: Winchester introduced this to compete with the .45-70, which wasn't suitable for repeating arms (although it later would be used in some bolt actions). This came out in 1876 and featured an enlarged version of the not particularly strong 1873 action. It fired a 350 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1383 and an energy of 1485 ft lbs.

It likely wouldn't have been a suitable military rifle, but as a police rifle, as per here, it likely was a pretty good choice. One oddity of NWMP practice is that Mounties, reflecting the vast distances they had to cover, and the small size of their force, often acted alone or nearly alone, so they no doubt needed to even the odds in terms of repeatable firepower as much as possible. Of course, lever actions were a popular item with civilian law enforcement personnel in the US as well.