Forums at The Military Horse

Another thread inspried by having recently started to watch "Band of Brothers".

It occurs to me there's a lot of military films which, if filmed accurately, should have horses somewhere in them. Likewise, there's some films in which horses surprisingly show up, even though they probably ought not to be there. This thread will hopefully note both such appearances.

Pat

"Salvadore"

This film was noted in a discussion a long while back. The film is a fictionalized account of correspondents following the war in El Salvadore during the 1980s.

The film includes a mounted charge by El Salvadorian rebels. That's the only clip of the film I've actually seen. When I saw it, I noted that here, and also asked a Costa Rican friend of mine who is pretty familiar with the war in El Salvadore if it accurately reflected anything. It seems to be universally agreed to that it doesn't. Put in purely for dramactic reasons.

Pat

"Patton"

Everyone will recall the epic excellent biography in film of the WWII experiences of Gen. George S. Patton. George C. Scott's portrayal of George S. Patton is so well done that the public memory of Patton is more defined by Scott's portrayal of him than of his actual character.

Patton, of course, was in charge of various US forces starting in 1943 in North Africa and through the end of the war. His troops faced German and Italian forces using horses in various capacities throughout the war, and he was responsible for using mules in his command in Sicily.

Be that as it may, horses, etc., show up only three times in the movie, which is perhaps not surprising as the movie emphasizes armored warfare. They show up when Patton shoots a donkey blocking a bridge, as a metaphor for German defeat in (dead horses) in France, and in the final scene when Patton was nearly killed by a runaway cart right after the war.


Pat

"A Bridge Too Far"

This film, based on a Cornealius Ryan book, shows Germans using horses, both for riding and for draft purposes, in the opening scene of the film in which Germans are in retreat. Nice use of horses in that portion of the film, which is quite breif.

Pat

"Band of Brothers"
I'm still viewing this tv film based on the book by Stephen Ambrose (which I have but have not yet read). However, to my surprise, the film includes two instances of horse use fairly early on.

The first occurs on the first night of the paratrooper jump, in which the lost paratroopers ambush a horse drawn German wagon.

The second depicts the use of a horse by a mounted paratrooper for running messages. I'm aware that there was some minor horse use of captured German horses, which is what this depicts, but other units, but I was not aware of any such use by airborne troops. Does anyone have details on that?

Pat

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />"Patton"

George C. Scott's portrayal of George S. Patton is so well done that the public memory of Patton is more defined by Scott's portrayal of him than of his actual character.

Be that as it may, horses, etc., show up only three times in the movie, which is perhaps not surprising as the movie emphasizes armored warfare. They show up when Patton shoots a donkey blocking a bridge, as a metaphor for German defeat in (dead horses) in France, and in the final scene when Patton was nearly killed by a runaway cart right after the war.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It was rather a letdown to find out that the real Patton, looked, and sounded, more like H. Ross Perot, than George C. Scott [:)]

Horses show up four times. You forgot the scene, where Patton is mounted on a Lipizzan, while being questioned by reporters about his use of former Nazi's in the post-war provisional government.

The Lipizzan was to represent this event, though it wasn't in the movie.

<b>In April 1945, the heroic efforts of the 42nd Squadron of the United States Army's 2nd Cavalry were responsible for the rescue and ultimate preservation of the Lipizzans. </b>The rescue of the horses was conducted under the orders of General George S. Patton and was carried out under the direct command of Colonel Charles H. Reed.

The story of the rescue operation is most dramatic. In early 1945, Vienna was under attack by allied bombers. Colonel Alois Podjahsky, head of the famed Spanish Riding School in Vienna, feared the valuable Lipizzaner Stallions would be destroyed and arranged for the stallions to be transferred by train to St. Martin's in Upper Austria, 200 miles from Vienna. Fodder was scarce and starving refugees attempted to steal the horses for food.

Coincidentally, elements of the U.S. Third Army moved into St. Martin's at the time Podhajsky had quartered the horses there at the estate of a friend. An officer recognized Podhajsky and the stallions, and sent word to General Patton's headquarters. Patton and Podhajsky had been old friends; they competed together in equestrian events at the Olympic Games.

Podhajsky arranged to show the Lipizzans to Undersecretary of War Robert Patterson, and General Patton the following day. Patterson and Patton were so impressed by the performance of these aristocratic white horses that the General, at the request of Podhajsky, promised to make the stallions wards of the U.S. Army until they could be safely returned to their home at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave J.</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />"Patton"

George C. Scott's portrayal of George S. Patton is so well done that the public memory of Patton is more defined by Scott's portrayal of him than of his actual character.

Be that as it may, horses, etc., show up only three times in the movie, which is perhaps not surprising as the movie emphasizes armored warfare. They show up when Patton shoots a donkey blocking a bridge, as a metaphor for German defeat in (dead horses) in France, and in the final scene when Patton was nearly killed by a runaway cart right after the war.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It was rather a letdown to find out that the real Patton, looked, and sounded, more like H. Ross Perot, than George C. Scott [:)]

Horses show up four times. You forgot the scene, where Patton is mounted on a Lipizzan, while being questioned by reporters about his use of former Nazi's in the post-war provisional government.

The Lipizzan was to represent this event, though it wasn't in the movie.

<b>In April 1945, the heroic efforts of the 42nd Squadron of the United States Army's 2nd Cavalry were responsible for the rescue and ultimate preservation of the Lipizzans. </b>The rescue of the horses was conducted under the orders of General George S. Patton and was carried out under the direct command of Colonel Charles H. Reed.

The story of the rescue operation is most dramatic. In early 1945, Vienna was under attack by allied bombers. Colonel Alois Podjahsky, head of the famed Spanish Riding School in Vienna, feared the valuable Lipizzaner Stallions would be destroyed and arranged for the stallions to be transferred by train to St. Martin's in Upper Austria, 200 miles from Vienna. Fodder was scarce and starving refugees attempted to steal the horses for food.

Coincidentally, elements of the U.S. Third Army moved into St. Martin's at the time Podhajsky had quartered the horses there at the estate of a friend. An officer recognized Podhajsky and the stallions, and sent word to General Patton's headquarters. Patton and Podhajsky had been old friends; they competed together in equestrian events at the Olympic Games.

Podhajsky arranged to show the Lipizzans to Undersecretary of War Robert Patterson, and General Patton the following day. Patterson and Patton were so impressed by the performance of these aristocratic white horses that the General, at the request of Podhajsky, promised to make the stallions wards of the U.S. Army until they could be safely returned to their home at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You're correct, I did forget that scene, and it was a significant one.

The Lipizzaner rescue, however, is one of the Patton stories that has a heavy element of myth attached to it. Patton was a great cavalryman and WWII general, but the full credit that he gets for this event should really not be his. In actuality, the rescue was conceived of by officers under Patton's command, who ran it past Patton for approval. Patton approved it, but he didn't show the large element of enthusiasm that people would expect. In actuality, his comments at the time were basically of the nature that he detested the officers in the Spanish School he believed that they should have been out fighting rather than riding during the war. That fits with Patton's pesonality, but it's a surprising stated position when you consider that they would have been out fighting for Germany. He basicallly took the position therefore that, well, it was worthwhile to save the horses and he gave his okay.

The story of Patton's use of Nazis, which in the main is outside the topic of this site, does have an odd equine element which I'll throw in. Patton was one of those officers who, while problematic to those around him, tended to excel in wartime but get into trouble, perhaps through boredom, in peacetime. After the war concluded in Europe one of the things he began to do was to rides, by horse, through the German countryside. In doing that, he struck up a casual friendship with a former SS officer, about whom he really knew nothing other than that the fellow was from the uppder class and a dedicated rider. Their friendship likely went no further than a mutual admiration for horses, but the fact that it occured showed some lack of insight on Patton's part to how his behavior might be interpreted, and people have speculated for years, without much basis in fact, that the German officer (a cavalryman) impacted his views on recent unemployed Nazis to some degree. Again, there's not much to support that, but it would have been better for Patton had he avoided the fellow.

Pat

It should be noted that the Spanish Riding Academy, before the start of WWII, shipped a complete breeding section of their Lippenzaners to South African to ensure the survival of both the school and the horses. They are still there today, on a farm outside Johannesburg, and perform the same drills, without he same majestic venue, as their Austrian kin. The herd is strong and healthy and still serves as the altenate breeding stock for the Lippenzaners.

Tom Sullivan

Pat,

Re: Salvadore

This film was supposedly set in the early 1980's, as you said. Interestinly, it is set at the time that Phil O'Rielly was there as a journalist. I arrived in this particularly nasty little fight in 1984 and left in late 1986. There was no documented "mounted charge" by the rebels, nor anyone else.

In fact, mules were important because of their great utility for transportaion of material, but were never used in the attack mode. One of the greatest problems with the Salvadoran Civil War was that few recognized that the entire country existed on a subsistence-only economy. The rebels could never afford horses and never used them for any "charge."

It also should be noted that the Salvadoran Army did not use horses either. There were just too many mines, rebel produced and laid, to use horses in the field.

Tom Sullivan

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tom Sullivan</i>
<br />Pat,

Re: Salvadore

This film was supposedly set in the early 1980's, as you said. Interestinly, it is set at the time that Phil O'Rielly was there as a journalist. I arrived in this particularly nasty little fight in 1984 and left in late 1986. There was no documented "mounted charge" by the rebels, nor anyone else.

In fact, mules were important because of their great utility for transportaion of material, but were never used in the attack mode. One of the greatest problems with the Salvadoran Civil War was that few recognized that the entire country existed on a subsistence-only economy. The rebels could never afford horses and never used them for any "charge."

It also should be noted that the Salvadoran Army did not use horses either. There were just too many mines, rebel produced and laid, to use horses in the field.

Tom Sullivan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The mule use is interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

Pat

Early last Saturday morning I happened to see the last half of "For Whom the Bell Tolls". I've always liked the movie because it was pretty faithful to the book.

After Gary Cooper blew up the bridge, he along with the Spanish partisans escaped by horseback. The tack was definately U.S. Cav. The saddles looked like '36 Phillips complete with pommel pockets and saddlebags. The movie was made in 1943, so maybe the studio bought up those saddles.

John

"A good horse rides best for a good horseman"

Re Patton saving the Lippizaners, may I remind you Disney's movie "The Miracle of the White Stallions" on this event IS as far as I know still available on DVD & VHS. (There is a very complete Disney website which can be located sing "Google". This shows everything Disney sells, plans or has sold!) The movie was not at all bad, even if unlike the usual Disney offering. Definitely well worth & look & owning! 1963 with Robert Taylor playing the Austrian head of the Spanish Riding Academy in wartime. Lili Palmer, Curt Jurgens, James Franciscus, & Eddie Albert & plenty of the horses in action! Grant.

John L. Matthew

Further - I'd never heard of Tom Sullivan's posting on there being a complete breeding group of the Lippizaners sent to South Afrca & still being there today outside Johannesburg! When Simon Wincer & crew were in Namibia & South aAfrica locating & shooting for Disney's IMAX "The Young Black Stallion", there was a dearth of Arabians available. Heath Harris, the famed Aussie horse trainer ( Wincer's "Phar Lap" was one of his earlier jobs!) found a couple who had some & was able to borrow from their establishment. No mention though ever made about Lippizaners at that time. But then they only needed Arabians for their filn. Grant.

John L. Matthew

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />"Band of Brothers"
I'm still viewing this tv film based on the book by Stephen Ambrose (which I have but have not yet read). However, to my surprise, the film includes two instances of horse use fairly early on.

The first occurs on the first night of the paratrooper jump, in which the lost paratroopers ambush a horse drawn German wagon.

The second depicts the use of a horse by a mounted paratrooper for running messages. I'm aware that there was some minor horse use of captured German horses, which is what this depicts, but other units, but I was not aware of any such use by airborne troops. Does anyone have details on that?

Pat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Having now finished the film and read the book, I note that horses turn up in the film in a couple of other places.

One is when the paratroopers surprise a mounted German soldier in the woods. In the film, he's an officer. This occurs in the book also, but I don't recall him being an officer in the book.

Another is where the US troops are being convoyed past long lines of surrendered Germans. One paratrooper notices the contrast between the truck riding US Army, and the horses in the German column, and begins to yell at the Germans, noting amongst his comments that they were still using horses.

Pat

The restored print of The Big Red 1 now includes a sequence of mounted Goumiers attacking a german machine gun nest.
Great fun
Regards
Sam

Sam Cox

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sam Cox</i>
<br />The restored print of The Big Red 1 now includes a sequence of mounted Goumiers attacking a german machine gun nest.
Great fun
Regards
Sam

Sam Cox
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Interesting. That must have been cut out of the original cinematic version.

This is a film that I liked quite a bit when it first came out. The cinematic version sort of fades in comparision to later films, like Saving Private Ryan. Perhaps the reissue is worth a look.

Pat

The restored film is great,the sound has been updated.All the recovered sequences really fill the gaps on the original 1980 cinema release.A work of genius


Sam Cox

"The Scarlet Princess" starring Marlene' Deitreich (sp?). Filmed around the late 20's early 30's. This movie of the rise of Catherine the Great has some of the most outstanding Cavalry footage I have ever seen in a movie.

Real Cavalry rode as Cavalry but I have no idea who they were. It is a bit corny compared to todays movies, but it is a good flick.

Regards,
Ron Smith

I don't know if it would qualify as a military film but Ron has reminded me of Dr. Zhivago.
Sandy

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by selewis</i>
<br />I don't know if it would qualify as a military film but Ron has reminded me of Dr. Zhivago.
Sandy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Which brings to mind Eisenstein's Potemkin
S