Swiss Military Tack

[Pat Holscher]

These photos depict a Swiss miltiary saddle belonging to Otto Schwarz, a former Swiss cavalry officer. The photos are courtesy of Basha and CuChullaine O'Reilly of The Long Riders Guild. Thanks to Basha and CuChullaine for allowing us to put them up. Herr Schwarz cuts quite a figure in retirment, on horseback.











Pat

[colonial]

I am looking for the Swiss Army Knife?Just kidding,nice outfit,thanks for sharing it.The ring under the cantle for attaching a crupper,(seen on other military saddles too)were they often used,and was the crupper standard equipment?

[Pat Holscher]

It is very interesting to see this type of saddle fully packed. To those of you who are familiar with various types of European miltary saddle, is this saddle closely related to any of the other types we might be familiar with?

Pat

[drking71]

Can someone tell me when the Swiss Army stopped using horses? I recall reading an article back in the late 60's or early 70's that told about the end of the Swiss mounted forces. The caption to the photo with the article described them as dragoons. Would that have been correct?

David R. King

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by drking71
Can someone tell me when the Swiss Army stopped using horses? I recall reading an article back in the late 60's or early 70's that told about the end of the Swiss mounted forces. The caption to the photo with the article described them as dragoons. Would that have been correct?

David R. King

I don't know when the ceased using mounted soldiers, although it might be mentioned in one of the old archived threads on ongoing horse use (The Everlasting Lasts and The Everlasting Lasts II). They have used pack animals fairly recently, and might still, although I'm unsure as to that.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Swiss stirrups and spurs.

http://www.deutscheoptik.com/product.php?cat=mil&id=774

Pat

[Larry Emrick]

PAT, DAVID: To respond to a couple of queries on the Swiss saddle: The numnahs on the sidebars look remarkably similar to those on the universal pattern but it's difficult to say from the photos how similar the rest of the saddle might be. Regarding Swiss mounted troops I recall in 1970 while travelling in Europe, encountering a very large body of horse-mounted troops on manoeuvres in Switzerland ,so they were still being used then, and I have seen more contemporary photos of pack horses being used by the Swiss military. Larry

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Larry Emrick
PAT, DAVID: To respond to a couple of queries on the Swiss saddle: The numnahs on the sidebars look remarkably similar to those on the universal pattern but it's difficult to say from the photos how similar the rest of the saddle might be. Regarding Swiss mounted troops I recall in 1970 while travelling in Europe, encountering a very large body of horse-mounted troops on manoeuvres in Switzerland ,so they were still being used then, and I have seen more contemporary photos of pack horses being used by the Swiss military. Larry

Larry, A long time ago we had a discussion on a Swiss saddle sold on ebay for which the owner had emailed me a copy of the photos. I'll have to see if I can find them. At any rate, that sattle was by all appearances a copy of the UP.

Since then I've seen another saddle depicted purported to be a Swiss saddle which was not of the UP type, but, if I recall correctly, more closely resembled the Armeesattle 25. However, that was a mere representation as to its origin, and may well be incorrect. Of course the ebay saddle was also a representation.

The shape of the numnahs being similiar to that of the UP makes me wonder if in fact the Swiss did not use a saddle patterned on the UP.

As an aside, Switzerland's terrain would appear to disfavor mechanized warfare, so it is interesting to note the long use of cavalry there. In McFee's "La Place De La Concorde Suisse" McFee quotes a Swiss officer who pondered that one day the horse would return to military prominence, as modern weaponry would make airborne transport impossible. That has not happened, of course, but it is an interesting observation.

Pat

[Oscar Torres]

I have a book in Spanish, “The great Encyclopedia of the Horse” would be the translation, and in the chapter devoted to cavalry there’s a photograph of three swiss cavalry soldiers, with their Maxim Rubin rifles slung across their backs (Swiss current issue rifle is the SIG 540 or 90, not sure), sabers hanging from the saddles, and uniforms resembling a 1940s armies uniforms, although the photograph looked pretty recent.

Maybe it was a commemorative unit during a parade, etc, no information was given on that subject. The picture stated that the Swiss cavalry was active until late 1970s, but now was demobilized. And definitively the saddles looked very similar to an Armesattel 25, what’s seems to be logic given the proximity between Germany and Switzerland.

Last week I met at my parents house a Swiss citizen, Frederic Polier, whom I met when I was an infant, he’s in his late thirties and is the son of a Swiss engineer that worked in Chile in the late 60s early 70s and his one of my Dads best friends, this guy, Frederic, being a kid became involved with horses when he lived in Chile and when the time came to serve in the Swiss Army he choose the pack train units, he told me the official name in French but I don’t master the language. He confirmed what I saw in a Deutsche Welle show about the demise of the Swiss Army pack train units last year, saying that they were deactivated less that a year ago.

The horses that cavalry and pack units used were of the Einsiedelner breed, a breed developed by the Monks in the Einsiedeln Kloster (monastery) – for those of you who speak German, this is their website http://www.marstall-einsiedeln.ch/ - and Freiberger horses, pack train units employed mules and the Haflinger pony.

Here is also a lot of information on Swiss Horse breed and their utilization.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plai ... rmblut.txt


Switzerland still has a government owned Stud, the National Stud at Avenches “Schweizer Nationalgestüt Avenches” today devoted to breed sports and pleasure riding horses.

[Barefoot]

At last! I knew that there must be other specimens of this saddle apart the one I own Here's an old picture of it that was taken before I bought it:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/291 ... BklOECpUhI
It's been repaired since then, and not having a saddle that gives a better seat I use it for every day riding and for hippotherapy also:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/291 ... 5373Vtdgmq
http://community.webshots.com/photo/291 ... 5443zDpjbC
Well, to be more precise I was using it. I traded it for a swiwel tree saddle and the arches of another one. The new owner didn't take it with him yet so I can still make some photos and put them up here. You'll see, that it bears only a superficial resemblance to the UP. It is much closer to the Armeesattel in fact. It has a steel reinforced wooden tree instead of all-steel arches and the seat is formed of a piece of thick rawhide laced to the tree.

What I'm curious about is the age of this saddle. There's the number 19 on each of the stirrups but I'm not sure this means the year 1919. It might only be a pattern number and it is possible that the stirrup is actually older than the saddle.

[Pat Holscher]

Swiss saddle of a type very close to the Armeesattel. I'll have to reload some of these photos, as some no longer load up.

[Pat Holscher]

These photos depict a Swiss miltiary saddle belonging to Otto Schwarz, a former Swiss cavalry officer. The photos are courtesy of Basha and CuChullaine O'Reilly of The Long Riders Guild. Thanks to Basha and CuChullaine for allowing us to put them up. Herr Schwarz cuts quite a figure in retirment, on horseback.











Pat

[jan]

On the site of the "Schweizer Kavallerie Schwadron 1972" a tradition group, are some photos of both the troopers and officers saddle in the groups Sattelkammer.

http://www.kavallerieschwadron.ch/4845/6863.html


And some photos of the Swiss Train Kolonne 13, a supply unit, in 2009.

http://www.tr-kol13.ch/die-13ner/bilder ... weisimmen/

Jan

[Pat Holscher]

And some photos of the Swiss Train Kolonne 13, a supply unit, in 2009.

http://www.tr-kol13.ch/die-13ner/bilder ... weisimmen/

Jan

I particularly like those ones. Seeing photos like that portrays scenes that in their own way look like so much fun it's easy to forget that these guys are training for war.

[Pat Holscher]

Tom Muller sent us these photos, and I've been slow to post them. Interesting stuff. Thanks Tom!

[Alex]

Neat photos! Thanks.

Tom,

Interesting looking small flaps on the first pic – is it officer saddle?
Rifle scabbard is also interesting – never saw the scabbard for Stg.57 before, but way of attaching it to saddle kinda remind me of Portuguese dragoon rifle bucket of which I’ve seen here in UP section.
It is the canteen which that attached to the cantle on the near side and fastens to the flap by strap?
Pack saddle is almost looks like a Gebirgsjäger pack saddle of which photo I’ve posted some time ago.


Regards, Alex.

[Tom Muller]

The excellent photos are courtesy of Mr. Ulrich Lehmann in Berne, Switzerland. My thanks go to him, he will send us more information, not just on swiss tack but on Swiss Cavalry in general. Mr. Lehmann was an Adjudant in the Swiis Dragoons, a "Bereiter" (professional rider) and later on riding instructor in the Swiss Army Equestrian Centre in Berne. Until it was closed in 1973 they trained 600 Remounts annually. Mr. Lehmann was a member of the Swiss Olympic team in Montreal 1976.

1. photo: officers tack with black saddle pad, off side
2. photo: em tack with Sturmgewehr 57 offside
3. photo: em tack, near side showing mess tin in leather holder
4. photo: pack saddle complete with stick to lead horse, near side
5. photo: officers tack near side
6. photo: swiss dragoon with Stg 57 and complete webbing, helmet, riding breeches and black riding boots

More photos and infos will follow

I hope you will enjoy it.


Tom

[tmarsh]

Thanks for posting! Do you know what year saddle was design? Hope all is well with you.Tom

[Tom Muller]

Tom,

don't know, I'll have to ask Mr. Lehmann.

Tom

[Pat Holscher]

Interesting bucket. I wonder if this is the only bucket purposely designed for a post WWII automatic rifle?