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Roy I sent you an Email but Hotmail said it's delayed. You should get it soon. I hope.

Cheers

The use of aircraft was mentioned earlier in this thread, and here's a photo showing it.

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source ... id=1154489

That certainly is a light aircraft to be used in this role. What is it?

Pat

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
The use of aircraft was mentioned earlier in this thread, and here's a photo showing it.

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source ... id=1154489

That certainly is a light aircraft to be used in this role. What is it?

Pat

It's a Millirole, a French license built version of the US O2 (O should be Observation, as in an artillery spotter plane). The O2 is a version of the Cessna Skymaster.

Thanks George. I think my knowledge on that plane is limited to having seen "Bat 21", which is to say, I don't know much about it.

Odd to see it used as a ground support aircraft here.

Pat

Originally posted by Pat Holscher
Thanks George. I think my knowledge on that plane is limited to having seen "Bat 21", which is to say, I don't know much about it.

Odd to see it used as a ground support aircraft here.

Pat

Not at all, it's a clasic COIN aircraft. It was used a lot in Vietnam and probably France used it in combat also. The French version could be equiped with a surveillance radar and a Psy Ops equipment suite including loudspeakers. Being a twin engine plane (notice the rear propeller in the middle of the twin booms) it has a greater capacity than a lot of COIN aircraft. It's also very fast. It was designed in a pusher puller configuration (a German invention by Dornier, used in a light bomber/night fighter) to allow flying a twin motor plane with a one motor licence. The configuration reduces drag as onle one motor faces the wind. It's used extensively in remoted piloted vehicles.

You have to take into acount that the air threath in this war was lower than Vietnam. On the other hand, there were so few jets available (9 Hawkerhunter were probably the best) that small planes had to do. South Africa used the humble one engine Bostok against conventional Angolan forces that air defence assets stronger than those that faced Israel in the Bekka Valley.

I don't recognice the word "Frantam" used to describe what the plane is doing. Looks like a napalm strike.

This photo was contributed by Eric, and was put up on the thread discussing the topic of Rhodesian boots:



In looking at this, this causes me to ask this question. Did the Grey's wear spurs?

Pat

Apparently not with these boots. None of the photos I have in my files (all from articles or books) show spurs. I guess it was worn in Full Dress when wearing breeches and high boots. Capt. Elderkin may confirm that. Mounted members of British South Africa Police wore spurs in Full Dress, and may be while on urban patrol, but again not when in combat uniform during the COIN period.

Eric

Photographs courtesy of Eric and the Gazette des Armes



There certainly can be no doubt, those are McClellans.

Pat

Courtesy of Eric and the Gazette des Armes



And this is a 1904 McCellan. Note the G3 rifle.

Pat

Courtesy of Eric



Grey's stable belt.

A special thanks goes out to Eric here, who cleared the printing permission on the two photos above from the publisher in France. Thanks!

Pat

The last picture of the charging horseman is very good. You can see he is actually aiming the G3. We can also get a good look at the boots with no spurs. Also of note is the Rhodesian cammo uniform and the jacket webbing. This webbing apears to be one of the grandadies of modern tactical vests. I was interested in seeing this kit in mounted action. Here's a link for the webbing in Selous Scout's use.
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/EQUIPMENT.htm

The same link also shows the comunist webbing popular among Rhodesian troops. It's been copied by Palestinians and Israelies (for tank crews). These types of webbing look practical and comfortable. I hated I stuff I had to wear. Never could adjust all the stupid straps.

Originally posted by george seal
The last picture of the charging horseman is very good. You can see he is actually aiming the G3. We can also get a good look at the boots with no spurs. Also of note is the Rhodesian cammo uniform and the jacket webbing. This webbing apears to be one of the grandadies of modern tactical vests. I was interested in seeing this kit in mounted action. Here's a link for the webbing in Selous Scout's use.
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/EQUIPMENT.htm

The same link also shows the comunist webbing popular among Rhodesian troops. It's been copied by Palestinians and Israelies (for tank crews). These types of webbing look practical and comfortable. I hated I stuff I had to wear. Never could adjust all the stupid straps.

The use of vests by mounted troops, which Roy mentions earlier in the thread, is intersting. For one thing, it puts most of the troops gear on the soldier, which would likely have made his switch to a ground soldier, when necessarily, much more rapid. Quite a contrast, really, to photos we see of American cavalry men of the second half of the 19th Century, or even to British and American cavalrymen of the 20th Century.

On vests in general, the US actually introduced a vest prior to D-Day. I've seen photos of it, but I've never seen a photo of one in use (outside the use by actors in Saving Private Ryan). Some people who are knowledgable on these topics claim that the vests were never actually used, as troops dislike them. Others claim that some were used in Overlord. Apparently the problem was that they were made out of the heavy canvas in use at the time, and therefore were very uncomfortable for the soldier, keeping in mind that American soldiers in Europe in WWII were already normally wearing a wool shirt and some sort of jacket.

Pat

I have a magazine article of a vest used in Overlord by sappers, maybe "seabees". It also included the waterproof case for the gas mask. Maybe that's what you are reffering to Pat. It looked heavy, but it was used to carry a whole load of stuff (explosives, plumber's torch) so the alternative would just have been a giant back pack. Maybe the grunts just did not whant to carry so much stuff?

Originally posted by george seal
I have a magazine article of a vest used in Overlord by sappers, maybe "seabees". It also included the waterproof case for the gas mask. Maybe that's what you are reffering to Pat. It looked heavy, but it was used to carry a whole load of stuff (explosives, plumber's torch) so the alternative would just have been a giant back pack. Maybe the grunts just did not whant to carry so much stuff?

I'm not familiar with that item. These were a canvas vest in one of the various OD colors with pockets in the front. They really don't vary much from a lot of the vests around now. The front pockets were for carrying ammunition, etc.

While I know it's poor form to cite it, the only photos I've ever seen of one in use is in the movie Saving Private Ryan. The movie is actually pretty accurate in terms of detail, which doesn't mean, of course, that they got that detail correct. Other than that, they are depicted in a book called "The WWII GI In Color Photographs", but that book does not have actual WWII photographs. I wonder if one of Shelby Stanton's books address the item.

I believe they were supposed to be issued to regular infantrymen, but generally most of them did not carry one, so I don't know how widely they were actually issued.

Pat

That these vests were worn on D-Day is a known fact. They wete not a general issue item, but some soldiers who landed with the first waves wore them on individual basis. There are contemporary pictures of soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division (infantrymen, engineers), beach groups and Rangers (both 2nd and 5th Bns) wearing them. There were a couple of articles about them in French military magazines.

The concept of a combat vest was pionneered by the Brits in 1942 and it was first used in combat by Commandos during the Sicily landings in 1943, then in Italy. British and Canadian infantrymen received some vests as well for the Normandy landings.
They were quickly discarded after a few days in Normandy because they were considered too hot.

In Rhodesia, they were never an issue item, but became rather popular with the troopies. Several outdoor sports companies manufactured and sold them, either OG or camouflage. I've got three different in my collection, as well as two locally-made chest webbings for FN FAL magazines.

Eric

Those McClellan trees were different from the US version. Even the one that looks like an '04 has a different shape to the tree and seat, and uses single-ply q-straps instead of the doubled one that the US Cavalry used.

Originally posted by Joseph Sullivan
Those McClellan trees were different from the US version. Even the one that looks like an '04 has a different shape to the tree and seat, and uses single-ply q-straps instead of the doubled one that the US Cavalry used.

Good eye!

Pat

Pat

Following my trip to South Africa I have out the following which may be of interest.
Firstly Zimbabwe Grey' Scouts is alive and well but goes undere the name of Zimbabwe Mounted Infantry Grey's Scouts. It is now useds extensively for anti poaching opps and cattle rustling, there is a lot that going on, but interestingly it contains a large number of female soldiers, its training and opps procedures are still based on the standards laid down on the Rhodesian way of doing things.It is worth noting that the ZAP still have a mounted section for ceramonial duties ie the escort for the president at the state oppening of parliment. They wear the same mounted uniform used by the BSAP,ie white pithe helmets and lances the only change is the name.

In another thread, spurs were not worn South Africa has a differant story ,the mounted infantry has almost ceased to exist, but they still train the SA Police, mounted police section who carry out mounted patrols in Johannesburg, and Durban as well as escorting the SA President in state oppening of Parliment.

In another thread spurs were not used by Grey's, they were only used in full dress and only by officers.

Roy

Pat

I have late addition which I found whilst unpacking, given to me in Durban so I will reproduce it for you.
Cadet Antics for Officer Cadets
A recent attachment has offered some variety to the drudgery of military training. The "Scouts " have gathered a full list quite unhorsey type expressions like the following.

a. Peeling- An instruction given at the top of one's voice when dismounting involuntarily.
b. Ooh,Ah Ooh- Beginners calling the time at early eqitation period.
c. Trot on!- An order given by the equitation instructor- students immediately begin a graceful attempt at self - castration, all the while calling the time as in b. above.
d. Prepare to Canter- An order for all students to gather their reins and their breath and tighten their- well brace their buttocks.
e. Canter- An instruction given to bring about involuntary dismounting.
f. Please Stop!- Instruction given by student to horse. Must be given at high pitch with hands firmly gripping saddle- usually follows e. above

A "look forward" on the regular cadets' training programme after maiden snatching and horse riding must surely include dragon slaying but QM says they're hard to come by at this time of year.

Roy

Roy, thanks!

Pat