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A nice Brunswick cap.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBa ... 03058&rd=1

Earlier this week I ate lunch in a Cheyenne, WY, restaurant. Cheyenne is the home of Warren AFB, and it also has a significant Air National Guard station.

Anyhow, there were three Air Force lieutenants eating lunch there also, wearing their flight suits. As I think the were active duty AF officers, they must have been helicopter crewmen of some sort, I think, as Warren AFB does not have fixed wing aircraft. Anyway, I couldn't figure out their unit, but they were all waring a unit patch with a Jolly Roger type Death's Head, which featured crossed bombs instead of crossed bones. On the opposite sleeve, they were wearing a patch that looked just like jump wings, but which featured a skull where the parachute should be, with the skull wearing a beret.

All these patches were in black and white, like pirate flags.

I couldn't make out their wings, fwiw. They wore wings, like pilots, but they were in a style like I'd never seen before.

I'd be curious what sort of crewmen these fellows were.

My other observation is that the looked like they were about 12 years old, which shows how much of a geezer I've become. It's shocking that such young people have such serious responsibilities.

Pat Holscher wrote:Earlier this week I ate lunch in a Cheyenne, WY, restaurant. Cheyenne is the home of Warren AFB, and it also has a significant Air National Guard station.

Anyhow, there were three Air Force lieutenants eating lunch there also, wearing their flight suits. As I think the were active duty AF officers, they must have been helicopter crewmen of some sort, I think, as Warren AFB does not have fixed wing aircraft. Anyway, I couldn't figure out their unit, but they were all waring a unit patch with a Jolly Roger type Death's Head, which featured crossed bombs instead of crossed bones. On the opposite sleeve, they were wearing a patch that looked just like jump wings, but which featured a skull where the parachute should be, with the skull wearing a beret.

All these patches were in black and white, like pirate flags.

I couldn't make out their wings, fwiw. They wore wings, like pilots, but they were in a style like I'd never seen before.

I'd be curious what sort of crewmen these fellows were.

My other observation is that the looked like they were about 12 years old, which shows how much of a geezer I've become. It's shocking that such young people have such serious responsibilities.

Back in Cheyenne today, and noticed a flight of attack helicopter roar over town. Pretty impressive. Makes me wonder if these men were from an attack helicopter unit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Crown-Pss-as-Dragoo ... .m14.l1318

Scroll down for a good enlargement.

Above is pre1913 photo, Viktoria Luise is on left, Cecilie on right. Here are two post1913 portraits of Viktoria Luise's husband in uniform of Brunswick hussars. He is also shown earlier in this thread. These two below give better view of the insignia.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Late-Prince-Ernst-A ... .m14.l1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/Prince-Ernst-August ... .m14.l1318

17th (Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers


This badge is known as "The Motto" and always reffered to as such.

Origin Of The Regiment 1759

The decisive battle in the war with the French in Canada occurred at Quebec on the 13th of September 1759. At this battle the British forces, under General Wolfe, successfully assaulted and took the besieged French city of Quebec. In the final stages of the battle Wolfe was mortally wounded. Before he died Wolfe directed Colonel Hale, of the 47th Foot, to return to England with his final dispatches and news of the victory at Quebec.

As was normal in such cases, the King rewarded the harbinger of good news. Hale was given land in Canada and a commission to raise one of five new regiments of Light Dragoons. Thus in 1759 the 17th Light Dragoons were born, in Hale's home county of Hertfordshire. Hale, still in mourning for General Wolfe, chose for a badge the Death's Head with the motto 'Or Glory'. This Motto has remained unchanged to the present day, continuing as the Motto (cap badge) of The Queen's Royal Lancers.

Although raised for the Seven Year's War, the 17th were not required to serve abroad until the American War of Independence.

The American War of Independence 1775-83


The Cowpens, South Carolina -- January 17, 1781

Initially seven infantry battalions were deployed to the colonies but with the outbreak of general war the need for cavalry was realised with the 17th being the first cavalry regiment selected. The Atlantic crossing took the Regiment two months, arriving at Boston, a city under siege by the American rebels. One week later they were present at the battle of Bunkers Hill. They then re-embarked for Halifax and thence on to the assault and capture of New York and Long Island. In 1777 the Regiment were moved to Philadelphia where they spent the following spring involved in offensive operations around the city only to be evacuated later that year.

Towards the latter part of the war the 17th also provided the only regular British Army element in Tarleton's Legion with whom they fought until virtually the end of the war. During this period, Private McMullins was carrying a despatch when he was beset by four militiamen - he shot one, disabled another with his sword, and brought the other two back as prisoners. In total the 17th Light Dragoons spent eight years in the Americas; eventually the war was lost as a result of political and military incompetence. The Regiment however distinguished themselves greatly in their first campaign.

On 17th April, 1783, it was Captain Stapleton of the 17th who handed General Washington the final British notice of the cessation of hostilities.

They are now known as the "QRL", amalgamated regiments of the 5th, 16th, 17th and 21st Lancers :-







Operation TELIC 9 The Queen's Royal Lancers Battlegroup busy in MaysaanProvince.



Best regards
Griff

This will be really offtopic for this thread, but quite recently I've noticed that a lot of young folks have window stickers in their vehicles around here which depict a skull wearing a German WWI vintage M16 helmet.

I presume that this has something to do with some logo used by something young folks like, but of which I'm unaware. Skateboards perhaps? For the historically minded, it makes a very odd thing to see.

Hi Pat

I know this..... the British 17th Lancers "Motto" is nothing to do with anything German or anything with "that" kind sinister meaning. It was created out of sentiment for General Wolfe and is never known as a "deaths head" or "Skull & Bones"..... it is always reffered to as "the motto".

The German Hussars



Use of the symbol as a military insignia began with the cavalry of the Prussian army under Frederick the Great. Frederick formed Husaren-Regiment Nr.5 (von Ruesch), a Hussar regiment commanded by Colonel von Ruesch. These Hussars adopted a black uniform with a Totenkopf emblazoned on the front of their Mirletons and wore it on the field in the War of Austrian Succession and in the Seven Years' War.

The sinister side ......the SS :-

In the early days of the NSDAP, Julius Schreck, the leader of the Stabswache (Adolf Hitler's bodyguard unit), adopted the Totenkopf for his unit. This later grew into the Schutzstaffel (SS), which continued to use the Totenkopf as insignia throughout their brief history. As they had done with the Swastika, the Nazis simply adopted the Totenkopf from the historical tradition and used it for their own purposes, leaving it marked with a stigma that has continued to the present.

It is important to note that the SS "Death's Head" symbol is markedly different from the original German (Prussian) Totenkopf, the original being much more archaic in appearance (see images above), with the SS version appearing more realistic. Moreover, the Prussian Totenkopf could face left or right in half-profile, but usually it was shown en face. The SS Totenkopf on the other hand was always facing left in half-profile.

The kids:-

I cant see this symbol being a healthy one for the kids to wear..... but it could be a sub culture comment on what is happening in the world today?

GriffMJ wrote:
In the early days of the NSDAP, Julius Schreck, the leader of the Stabswache (Adolf Hitler's bodyguard unit), adopted the Totenkopf for his unit. This later grew into the Schutzstaffel (SS), which continued to use the Totenkopf as insignia throughout their brief history. As they had done with the Swastika, the Nazis simply adopted the Totenkopf from the historical tradition and used it for their own purposes, leaving it marked with a stigma that has continued to the present.

It is important to note that the SS "Death's Head" symbol is markedly different from the original German (Prussian) Totenkopf, the original being much more archaic in appearance (see images above), with the SS version appearing more realistic. Moreover, the Prussian Totenkopf could face left or right in half-profile, but usually it was shown en face. The SS Totenkopf on the other hand was always facing left in half-profile.

To expand on that (which may have been mentioned above, both types of Death's Heads were in use by the German forces in WWII, as some German units that claimed lineage from earlier Imperial German units that had used it continued to use the more traditional symbol. To at least a small degree, the German Army units (Heer) protested over SS use, which resulted in the other form for the SS.

GriffMJ wrote: The kids:-

I cant see this symbol being a healthy one for the kids to wear..... but it could be a sub culture comment on what is happening in the world today?

I don't think it's a healthy symbol for kids either, but for some odd reason symbols associated with the German military have been symbols of rebellion amongst the young, or certain groups, since WWII. Motorcycle gangs, or those attempting to affect a gang appearance, have adopted certain SS symbols at various times, and also adopted the Iron Cross as jewelry. WWII German helmets had a run as a motorcycle helmet, albeit one that was bad for that purpose, at one time, and that's recently revived in the form of coal cuttle style synthetic motorcycle helmets. This apparently goes way back, and I know that a photo of the late Pierre Elliot Trudeau, the former prime minister of Canada, circulated at one time depicting him, as a young motorcyclist, wearing a M16 helmet.

The deaths head has been used the same way. A couple of years ago Wal Mart had a minor scandal when it found itself selling SS style Death's Head t-shirts. Going way back, a variant of the Death's Head can be seen in film, when the motor cycle gang in The Wild Ones is shown wearing jackets with the symbol, but with cylinders rather than femurs for the crossed bones.

It's odd how this symbol has been used in this fashion.

Hi Pat

What ever it means to people..... its still an ugly thing...... and does not appeal to me in the slightest. If people think it makes them appear tougher by wearing it..... then they are sadly deluded. The Brit 17th have never made a big thing about it.... the reason for "the Motto's" longevity in the British army is purley down to history and the memory of General Wolfe.

General Wolfe is remebered by many Brit Regiments..... for example .... the Royal Anglian Regiment (Infantry today) .... is an amalgamation of many different old Infantry regiments .... some of whome fought with him. Because of this a black cord is worn in the gold shoulder chords of the Officers mess kit of the Royal Anglian Regiment..... another way of remembering the General..... he is also toasted in the mess to this day I believe.


The death of General Wolfe, September 13, 1759

Best regards
Griff

Just a good illustration.

I ran across a saddle blanket the other day in an on line tack catalog with a "pirate", i.e., skull and crossbones, motif. This is a current saddle blanket, tapping into the popularity of this design.

Odd.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IMP-HUSAR-ENGRAVED- ... 286.c0.m14

Bottom photo.

Here are 2 very interesting photos from our friends from the Panzer-Archiv.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... &start=345

Tom

Watch the level of your speakers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3ISKMy ... re=related

Reading Bernard Pares' "History of Russia" over the weekend has entailed spending almost as much time with an atlas and google as it has in actually reading the book itself. Anyway, on one of those side trips this photo of a white Russian popped up and I was reminded of this thread.