Forums at The Military Horse

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat

A territorial soldier in the Rhodesian army, was one had completed his national service, and was liable for call up, or draft as you would know it. Every male between the age of 16 and 50 was liable to be called up, on leaving school all males had complete and report for national service training . In British context an TA soldier is voluntary, or is transfered to the reserve after being a regular soldier.

Thanks Roy. Sort of like an "obligor" in US service. I think it is still the case that American males who have not completed a term of service are "obligors". Every year in active or reserve duty takes up a year of your obligation, with the present obligation being, I believe, eight years. It used to be six. Of course, most people do not use up any of their obligation. Back when we had a draft, some draftees were actually called into a reserve unit after their initial period of the Army, as part of their obligor status.

Pat

Originally posted by Subotai
11. Did you use saddle blankets or pads or both?

12. What type of bit[s] did you use?

Jeff, that one has already been addressed. Originally they used blankets, and then went to pads. Take a look back up in the text on the discussion of tack. That topic is pretty well discussed by Roy already.

13. How long did you find it took to turn the concept of the Grey's Scouts into a viable combat entity? Acceptance of concept through training to deployment?

14. What were the dates or years that the Grey's Scouts were active?

On these, Roy sent me a text that addresses this, and when I get a chance I'll put that part up. I don't want to have to burden Roy, who has been very generous with us, in making him repeat stuff he already sent to me.



Pat

On the origins of the unit:

Two Rhodesian Army Officers Major Beaver Frazer-Kirk and Tony Stephens, had the idea of using horses in war. This was not a new concept. Rhodesia being large with four borders to control, its manpower and resources would be stretched to the limit in the coming war. Beaver Frazer-Kirk and Tony Stephens undertook to do user trials with horses in the Eastern Highlands, the idea was to form an animal transport unit. This was undertaken with the British South Africa Police who were supposed to be the ultimate authority on the matter of horses, after all they were supposed to be the first line of Defense, war had not been declared therefore everything was deemed a Police operation. The Police had a mounted section, but it had not been used for some years, its only purpose was for ceremonial duties. Ironically the Police right up until the 60's had been using the horse to patrol areas of Rhodesia, before the arrival of the motor cycle and land rover. I sometimes wonder if these types of patrols had continued and the Police remained in areas where there was continuity between the trooper and the rural African whether the history of Rhodesia would have been different. However, back to our story. The trails were completed; the Police submitted a report to the effect that the use of the animals in the way that was suggested by the two Officers was not a feasible proposition. The concept was to use the animals to carry logistical equipment, in areas that were inaccessible during certain periods of the year, namely the rainy season. The Police did not think it was a worthwhile task in fact they were to be proved wrong on all counts, as our story will relate. One was when Grey's were actually using horses in a combat role, as well as carrying supplies, and in some cross border operations into Mozambique. There must have been some gnashing of teeth at Police Headquarters, for two years later after Grey's became official, the police put their own units into the field, without much success I might add.

The two officers having a great deal more tenacity than the Police, approached the Army with their report, saying that in their opinion it could be done provided the right equipment and manpower could be provided. The Army was not actually sold on the idea, but someone up there must have thought so. They were prepared to give it a try, but if the results were not satisfactory the idea would be dropped. They did not want to see a transport unit as such, but it was proposed that a Mounted Infantry Unit be formed, the idea being that they be used on the border, namely the Eastern border which already had a code word for ops, "Hurricane". The Unit was then formed under the name of MIU.

Hello Subotai

I will try and answer as many of the questions that I can, some of the questions have already been answered in text 1975 and on.
The organization of Grey's came about in two phases, firstly in its concept when it was MIU, there were three troops consisting of 26 men per troop, they operated in a six man stick. When we became Grey's this was changed to 3 operational Sqns, the squadron was made up as follows, sqn com Major, 3 troops of 32 men each one commanded by a Lt,an SSM [Squadron Sergeant Major] plus Sgts per troop. Farriers,saddlers a Vet Officer, signals section, and a stable manager who was responsible for hay and feed either in base, or resuply to patrols in the field.An interesting issue regarding vets their was acommon grouse, was that the army seemed to lavish more attention on its horses than its men.On one occasion a troop boasted several vets but lacked a medic, and aman reporting sick was liable to be told he had a mild case of colic.
6. Horses were handed over one trooper three horse, if they were advancing on a contact, ambushes,and immediate action troopers bailed out, horses had to fend for themselves. I may seem callous but we were at war, the horse was expendable, men no, a horse could be replaced a man could not.In June 1976 a stick was ambushed in the Kandeya Tribal Trust Land the stick consisted of six men and a tracker dog called Gus. They carried out ambush drills and advanced, on the contact, Gus the tracker dog led all the horses back to their base no horses were lost, the stick was later picked up by vehicle.It later transpired that 20 ters were resting, they found one dead ter and a lot of blood spoor. To us the horse was a means of patroling securing an area, and follow up, once on spoor the persuit was relentless, until we cought up with them if horses fell bye the wayside so be it.

7. It varied 3 to 5 days, was the norm but could be extended. Troops being resupplied in the field.

8. We did not move at night but based down, one of the text explaines baseing up procedures. Unless we were on cross border ops whe we moved at night.

9. Yes, they were specialy trained fox hounds, who could run in advance of the troop and stay on spoor.

10. It was noticed that the horses own sensitivity to sound and scent could provide an early-warning system to the rider, while its speed meant that the soldier could pursue at the gallop for a short distance, or sweep and follow-up for much longer periods at an alternating canter walk. Many readers who have worked with horses for long periods know these signs, it is harder to teach a new recruit them, this sort of knowledge only comes with time and training.

11. It was found that folded blankets tended to if not folded properly could cause saddle sores, also tended to get dirty and full of grass seeds when working in tall elephant grass.Time consuming when one has to saddle up quickly, so we turned to pads which solved this problem.

12. Snaffle bits with halter bridles.

13. Se previous text.

14. Effective from 1976 to 1980, I continued after this date when I was asked by the Zimbabwe Govt to integrate and train former factions. And commanded A Sqn for a while up to 1982

15. Yes 2 troops out one in reserve

16.17 No our mission was to seek and find, then when size and direction was established bring support in ,usually fire force helicopter teams as stop groups. Once called up they were there within ten to twenty minutes. We did now and then engage them without support, using our reserve troop which was brought in by horse transport and deployed, or one of the other troops could come in from another area to support and follow up, when they bombshelled. Support from another troop or reserve within an hour or two.


18. On dismounting standard infantry drills appply, advance to contact, form skirmish line left or right flanking.In ambushes it was found that the speed and mobility of the horse could get you out of trouble, that is to go through the ambush , lay down as much fire that you could , soldiers were taught to fire on horse back, it is not so much that you hit your target, as to supress the fire. It was found that the ters fired high and wild. The experience gained by troops, revealed hotherto unexpected advantages to patrolling on horseback. It was found that, when mounted, a man could track not only faster, but more accurately, than the foot soldier, line of spoor could be followed quickly, and large areas covered with greater mobility.

I hope this answers most of your questions if you require more and I will try and answer them.

Roy

The reference to the British South Africa police is interesting, in that I take it they had only dismounted in the 1960s, were not enthusiastic about the army's experimentation with a mounted unit, but later created one of their own.

Was the British South Africa Police mounted force of similiar size, makeup, and role to the Grey's?

Pat

Pat

It was smaller than Greys, did not have the infantry tactics, and not have the same role as . This a major bone of contention in that having turned down the idea, it rebounded on them. In fact a number of ex policeman joined the unit.

Roy

Sorry Pat
But as foot note I was once in the BSAP and this is when my riding career started in 1957, when all policemen were taught to ride. So it is a little ironic, that my former instructors when they joined the unit came under my instruction . The last mounted patrols were in 1960, I was posted to a district station where the last horse patrols were carried, after that we did six week foot patrols along the Mozambique Border.

Roy

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Sorry Pat
But as foot note I was once in the BSAP and this is when my riding career started in 1957, when all policemen were taught to ride. So it is a little ironic, that my former instructors when they joined the unit came under my instruction . The last mounted patrols were in 1960, I was posted to a district station where the last horse patrols were carried, after that we did six week foot patrols along the Mozambique Border.

Roy

A six week foot patrol sounds truly grueling!

Interesting on the BSAP. It is ironic that the BSAP had ceased mounted patrols only to have the army successfully resume them later. As an added item, I noted in your text that for a time the war was essentially administered as a police action, with the police taking a fairly prominent role. Working out the police/military roles can be problematic in wars of this type, as they are wars, but have a police element to them as the opponent cannot be conventionally defined. Perhaps the war in Malaysia that the British fought in the 50s is the best example of that. And I've seen some photos off Rhodesian policemen in the war in which I would not realize they were in fact police, given their dress in military uniforms, so I'd guess the police must have taken on more and more of some conventional military type roles as time went on, but it is interesting to note here that the BSAP did not fully take on the role the Greys had. Indeed, I'd guess they really could not have, as no police force would really have been equipped for the mounted patrol and mounted infantry role.

It is an age old problem in some ways. The North West Mounted Police and the US Cavalry coexisted on the North American frontier with similar tasks as an example of that, with the US putting its army in a police role, quite often, while Canada approached the task with militarized police.

On the BSAP, I'd guess that it must have had its origin as the police force in British southern Africa, but surely must have been locally administered for quite a while by 1960? Why did they disband their mounted patrols? It sounds as if it could not have been due to vehicle use, given the use of foot patrols.

Given as the BSAP in Rhodesia used mounted patrols, I'd guess that a similar force in South Africa, and perhaps elsewhere in southern Africa, did likewise at some point. Does anyone know for sure, and if so, when did that cease (if it did)?

On resupplying the Greys in the field, was this accomplished to any extent through aircraft or helicopters? I note that in the linked in text on the Portuguese Dragoons below they were resupplying, on some occasions, their mounted troops by way of helicopters, although I don't know to what extent. Their effort was in part inspired by a lack of sufficient aircraft for patrolling, however, which I do not think the Rhodesian example was in any way. There's been quite a bit of discussion in older threads on the difficulties of resupplying mounted units in the pre automobile and aircraft era, but no discussion of how this must have changed in the fully modern era.





Pat

Pat
In some respects and to be fair to the police, the BSAP were foremerly the British South Africa Company Police, who came to Rhodesia with Rhodes to protect the companys interests. When the Britih took over the admin of the country they became the BSAP

sorry I had a didgit problem the BSAP right up to the mid 50s still used military rank, and regarded themselves has the first line of defence. The were in fact para military and trainded recruits on military lines. Rhodesia at that time did not have a large military Regt, but consisted of a Staff Corp and a main unit the RAR, although self governing the British for a while was responsible for its defence until Federation. That is the Federation of the Rhodesias and NYasaland [Southern Rhodeesia , Northern Rhodesia now Zambia and Nyasaland now Malawi] when more Regts were created RLI SAS and others .RAR fought in the Malya conflict. But all through this period the POlice tried to hold the reins of Power in regard to the defence of the country. The Rhodesian Govt did not regard the conflict as war, therefore the army was to support the police, this was always a bone of contention which resulted in a lot of political infighting until the formation of JOCS[Joint Operational Commands] and [COMOPS combined opperational staff] when all three arms were combined ie police,army and air force. With regard to horse patrols ,they were replaced by motor cycle or vehicle patrols, foot patrols stopped in 1961 when the first ter incident occured. We were never supplied by air, they did think of dropping water to us, using bladders, but because of sanctions we could not get the raw materials to make them, other units had be equipped so money was tight, they gave us water bowsers instead. We found that the best way of supply was still by armoured protected vehicles, and the deployment of men and horses. The air force was in great demand not only for air cover, but also for deploying fire force by helicoptor, we came very low on their list unless air strikes were called up.I must admit that I am enjoying the forum, trying to answer questions that I have not looked at for nearly twenty years, but keep asking.

Roy

Originally posted by roy elderkin
sorry I had a didgit problem the BSAP right up to the mid 50s still used military rank, and regarded themselves has the first line of defence. The were in fact para military and trainded recruits on military lines. Rhodesia at that time did not have a large military Regt, but consisted of a Staff Corp and a main unit the RAR, although self governing the British for a while was responsible for its defence until Federation. That is the Federation of the Rhodesias and NYasaland [Southern Rhodeesia , Northern Rhodesia now Zambia and Nyasaland now Malawi] when more Regts were created RLI SAS and others .RAR fought in the Malya conflict. But all through this period the POlice tried to hold the reins of Power in regard to the defence of the country. The Rhodesian Govt did not regard the conflict as war, therefore the army was to support the police, this was always a bone of contention which resulted in a lot of political infighting until the formation of JOCS[Joint Operational Commands] and [COMOPS combined opperational staff] when all three arms were combined ie police,army and air force. With regard to horse patrols ,they were replaced by motor cycle or vehicle patrols, foot patrols stopped in 1961 when the first ter incident occured. We were never supplied by air, they did think of dropping water to us, using bladders, but because of sanctions we could not get the raw materials to make them, other units had be equipped so money was tight, they gave us water bowsers instead. We found that the best way of supply was still by armoured protected vehicles, and the deployment of men and horses. The air force was in great demand not only for air cover, but also for deploying fire force by helicoptor, we came very low on their list unless air strikes were called up.I must admit that I am enjoying the forum, trying to answer questions that I have not looked at for nearly twenty years, but keep asking.

Roy

Thanks again!

I was aware that Rhodesian volunteers had fought in large numbers (high percentage of population) in WWI, and again in WWII, but I was not aware that a Rhodesian unit had been used in Malaya. Very interesting.

Very interesting also how the police/armed forces conflict played itself out.

On mounted police, I've been curious whether mounted police were used in any of the other southern African nations. In particular, I've wondered if South Africa might have used them. By the same token, I've wondered if South Africa used any mounted army units at all. We have a link up somewhere indicating that some continued riding training is going on in the South African army, which would suggest that at least a riding training program for officers remains, but that is likely at the present time, tied to other purposes rather than actual field use, of course.

Going back up ot the questions on equipments, it occurs to me that while we discussed the FALs and G3s, I omitted the FN MAG, which I believe to be the general purpose machinegun in use in Rhodesia during the period. Were the Greys equipped with this weapon, and if so, how was it carried? It's a heavy weapon, so I'd suspect a separate pack horse, such as was used by the US for the M1917 or by the UK for the Vickers, but that's a pure guess on my part.

Pat

Pat
Regarding the South African Army they had a similar set up to Greys, it was run from the military academy Voortreker Hoogter, Ondersepoort which is where their training and riding school are, we sent some of our people down there but were not impressed. It was used to train men for South West Africa [Namibia] for mounted patrols. I doi not know whether it still continues, but I could find out as I am going there in Nov for three weeks returning Dec 5. So I will ask and try and get more info for you.
In answer to your question regarding the FN MAG, Greys were equiped with this weapon, but was used mainly for base defence and mounted on armoured supply and horse transport .The Uzi sub machine gun was also carried.


Apart from the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles[ C sqn 22 SAS were also in Malaya.

Roy

Roy, welcome to this forum. I'ts really good to have someone with actual mounted combat experience participating on the forum. I've tried to lure some chilean horse cavalry officers into posting here, but for now it has been unfruitful.

Been reading a lot lately about the War in Rhodesia and the campaigns of the 70’s and 80’s in Angola and South West Africa, which are the sort of war that don’t attract too much attention in this part of the world, with the exception made of many left wing Chilean expatriates that fought for Cuba in Angola in the 70’s and later became terrorists here against General Pinochet.

I gather that the Army horse cavalry in Chile (maybe in Argentina as well), while operating also as mounted infantry really, is supposed to field larger formations to be split in smaller units but always intended to fight an eventual enemy consisting in another regular national army (from our friendly neighbours Perú, Argentina or Bolivia).

I say that because It seems to me (and I’m not discovering the gun powder) that the particularities of the Grey Scouts or the 1 SWA Specialist Unit (the mounted infantry fielded by South Africa in Namibia in the 70’s) were dictated by the fact that they were chasing terrorists and not opposing large formations of regulars. I’ve found no mention of the 1 SWA Specialist Unit engaging Cuban troops (maybe they did against Angolans)

The last time when the chilean cavalry was about to fight was in late 1978 when Chile and Argentina were on the brink of war. An all arms amphibious assault was scheduled by the Argentine Navy on three disputed islands south of Magellan Strait, and that would have set the whole 4000 mile border ablaze. The H hour was December 22, 6AM, and at 01.00 Am the Argentine Junta accepted the Pope's proposal of mediation, others say the fleet encountered a severe South Atlantic storm and could not stand up to it.

The role that the army had in mind for the cavalry was to guard the narrow border passes (sort of Khyber Pass style) against invading armoured formations with shoulder borne antitank weapons, recoilless rifles and serving as spotters for the air force or to the 155 mm artillery, something the afghans did years later against the soviets.

In the book “Death in the Desert: The Namibian Tragedy” by Morgan Norval, the author states: “There are basically five reasons why the old horse cavalry has been revived, minus the sabres, in the terrorist war in Namibia: visibility, range, speed, the ability to operate in terrain where it is impossible to use mechanized vehicles, and, last but not least, the lack of sufficient numbers of helicopters.” The last 2 reasons I believe is why Chile is keeping the cavalry alive in our mountainous borders.

One factor that does not apply in our case is visibility, mostly for tracking terrorists spoor and for preventing ambushes, arguments present in every account of the Grey’s or the South African Mounted Infantry. As any hunting enthusiast knows. because of special conditions both Rhodesia and South Africa had not only superb skilled tribesmen in the art of bushcraft but also white people.

I’ve seen stockmen in the mountains that are great trackers and sometimes work for the army or police, but hardly as good as bushmen or big game hunters are, and those are abilities hard to find in other places.

Here is the link to a page over this subject, and 3 good pictures of South African Mounted Infantry.

http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/norch12.htm

http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/norch15.htm

http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/norpic1.htm

Oscar Torres Arrau
Abogado
Santiago de Chile

Great links Oscar! Thanks for posting them. I have some info on Argentina's last mounted combat troops. I'm posting in the Review section in the "Horse Mechanized Alive and Well in Argentina" thread, but I've been lazy. I'll post more soon.

I have a question for Roy, can you tell us anything of the INternal Affairs mounted units. This is a quote from Rhodesian forces.org:

Mounted Units.
The constant patrolling in the field was mainly done on foot or by bicycle. Vehicle patrols were also conducted and were generally hampered by land mines. The use of horses was a natural follow on to these patrols. The first horse troop was established in 1973 at Mount Darwin which was under the command of District Commissioner Jim Latham. This troop was locally known as "Latham's Light Horse". As more successes were achieved funds were allocated to purchase more horses. Eventually horses were donated by various people including the farmers of South Africa. Intensive training was done and drills were established for deployment in combat situations. The horse troops were expanded and one was also deployed in Inyanga district. The great success of the Intaf horse troops was noted by the army and in 1975 the Grey's Scouts were formed as an army mounted infantry unit.

Roy, this i you, isn't it?


Oscar

Hi Oscar yes thats me
George in response to your question yes INTAF did use horses, but it was in a limited way and totaly unlike Grey's. INTAF or to give its correct title Internal Affairs and was part of the dept of native affairs. They were responsible for and looked after what we called tribal trust lands, this was land set aside purely for the use of the african and could not be bought but was given to them for their use. Under the District Commisioner, he insured that the ttl was properly run. Therefore native staff were used by INTAF to ensure, that this was done. As far as combat opps were concerned, they were not involved in any, this article was a PR exercise by the Govt, to say to the African population, that this was not white against black, and that blacks were fighting alongside whites. It was completely untrue that army formed the Grey's scouts from INTAFs use of horses, founders of the Regt Tony Stephens, and Capt Beaver Frazer battled long and hard to convince army to use horses.There were many senior officers who largely ridiculed the idea, of reforming mounted infantry, as a romantic anachronism that would only detract from the Rhodesian war effort. If as the article stated that army wanted to form a mounted unit, then why did it take a further two years before anything happened, no it did not come about as was stated, the history of the Regt has been well documented,and INTAF involvement has never been mentioned ,only in mounted troops . They were not troops and were never designated as such.
I will only be to happy to set things right, give the facts and take out the fiction.

Roy

Originally posted by Oscar Torres


Roy, this i you, isn't it?


Oscar

Here's one Roy sent showing the dress uniform.



And here's a color one of Roy in the dress uniform here:


Pat

Roy, noting that a mounted unit continued to exist after Rhodesia became Zimbabwe Rhodesia, does any sort of military horse use you know of survive at present?

Pat

Originally posted by Oscar Torres

Here is the link to a page over this subject, and 3 good pictures of South African Mounted Infantry.

http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/norch12.htm

http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/norch15.htm

http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/norpic1.htm

Oscar Torres Arrau
Abogado
Santiago de Chile

This is a unit which we've had very little information on before. It's interesting to see this material on it. I was not aware that South Africa used mounted troops in Namibia at all. If there's more information, a seperate thread would be worthwhile to develop it.

As an addition, I read an item that noted that South African SAS personnel (if I've used the correct term, and I might not have) used horse transportation for their operations in Angola in some instances.

Pat

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat
Regarding the South African Army they had a similar set up to Greys, it was run from the military academy Voortreker Hoogter, Ondersepoort which is where their training and riding school are, we sent some of our people down there but were not impressed. It was used to train men for South West Africa [Namibia] for mounted patrols. I doi not know whether it still continues, but I could find out as I am going there in Nov for three weeks returning Dec 5. So I will ask and try and get more info for you.
In answer to your question regarding the FN MAG, Greys were equiped with this weapon, but was used mainly for base defence and mounted on armoured supply and horse transport .The Uzi sub machine gun was also carried.


Apart from the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles[ C sqn 22 SAS were also in Malaya.

Roy

Roy, have a good trip!

Again, as noted above, use of horse by the South African military is something we have not been able to learn much about.

If you should have the occasion to find out, we'd certainly love to know the answer.

Pat