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Thank you for all the information in your posting. I have some items that could use some more detail. Oxo (Gravy?) Dog Biscuits (Bread, Crackers?) Sachet? Also you mentioned the Territorial Army. Being a 13 years and counting member of the National Guard, I know that is the British counterpart. (The British are paid more, however their jobs in civilian life are not guaranteed to be kept for them if they are called up.) What was the Rhodesian counterpart and how were they located?. (Cities, states, or districts.) Also while I'm on the subject, did the Rhodesians have anything like the ROTC (Reserve Officers Training Corps) at their colleges and universities? Cougar

Cougar

Thank you for your comments.
1 Oxo cubes, you may know it as gravy powder, in this country and Rhodesia this would come in a powder form or small cube, we would prefer the cube, when mixed with hot water it was extreemly nutrious drink, especialy during the winter. African nights can get very cold, and is a good substitute for meat.
2. Dog biscuits or crackers, to eat them they had to be soaked either in water, or dipped into another drink, on the whole they were not much good for any thing else, but they had to be broken down or soaked before they could be eaten.
3 Sachet this was a small plastic bag, the corner was cut of and the contents squirted over food, it contained either tomato sauce, or worcester sauce or some other type of relish, depending on the luck of the draw in your rat pack contents.
4 TA Army this is were life gets a little complicated. Under Rhodesian Law all males between the ages of 16 and 55, were eligable to be called up in times of emergency. However when a male reached the age 16 and left school he was required to undergo National Service training,before the war rearly got started he had to report to the NS training centre at llewelyn Barracks which was outside Bulawayo, or Brady Barracks also in the same area. Here he would undergo his initial training,having completed it he would then be transfered to either 1st Battalion or 2 Bat the Rhodesia Regt formerly known as The Royal Rhodesia Regt, the Royal was dropped after UDI. He was then required under law to attend, every year a camp for training which usualy lasted about three weeks. In the early days this training was based of classical warfare, and some counter insurgancy training, it later became more counter insurgancy orientated that is why soldiers were well trained in this type of warfare. A TA soldier could if he applied, do his call ups either in Armoured Car Regt, Service Corps , Millitary Police, Engineers, Signals or transfer to the Air Force. From then on that is where he did his call ups, when the war was at its height these call ups became more frequent, and a longer duration, this had a knock on effect in that many men left the country and the manpower shrank.
The division in country became more apparent, and this is where it gets complicated. Most males either having done their NS or did not have to do it. Then either became A Reserve Police man in which case they ran the Police Stations, in the absence of a regular police man, or if they lived in the rural areas, joined the police B Reserve, and were responsible for farm security and patrols, road blocks etc. But wherever they went they were required carry out these call ups, unless exempted. In the latter stages of the War NS were trained in house in various Regt, Grey's carried out these courses but from then on they were required to stay for 2 years, with the colours. Grey's had a full TA Sqn C Sqn, and they did their call ups with this Sqn. They were also in the signal and administration sections.
5 There were no ROTC courses in the format that you described. But PO [potentional officers] were on selection sent on OSB's [ Officer Selection Boards] if they passed would be promoted to TA Officers,or NS officers. This same system applied to regulars as well, but direct commission was the normal way. In which case you would initialy go to the School Of Infantry, before going to a Regt. The TA was national, and under law he could not be dismissed from his work, because of these call ups, he was paid whilst he was on call up and his company reimbursed for his absence.

I hope this answers some of you questions, but in the case of TA and NS it can get complicated, but it worked.

Roy

Cougar

There is a correction in what I said above it should read B Sqn not C, A and C were regular Sqn's. But TA and NS soldiers could be found in almost every Regt of the Rhodesian Army. A relative of mine who was a Major in the RAR during his regular service, would do his call ups back in RAR, which was a prodominantly european led African Regt.

Bumped up by request.

By the way, I note in looking through this that some of the "quote" mark items from the old forum don't work well, with photos, in the new forum. They photos come up, but the quote marks aren't working quite right. If that does't clear up, I'll go back and edit it soon.

Eighteen pages. By far the most popular thread here on the Society of the Military Horse forum.

I will write a historical article on the Grey Scouts for "Espejo Aeronautico" a Spanish language Latin American defense web site, this is the URL:
http://www.espejoaeronautico.com/
The idea is to write the piece for a "Forgotten Conflicts" section that deals on wars that are little known to the general public but are nonetheless interesting. The piece will not only verse on the Grey's but also on the causes and consecuences of the Bush War in general.

I would very much would like to add some photographs, so I´m requesting permition to post some of the pictures that have been placed in this thread. Both the Society of the Military Horse and the original authors of the pictures will recibe full credit.

George

george seal wrote:I will write a historical article on the Grey Scouts for "Espejo Aeronautico" a Spanish language Latin American defense web site, this is the URL:
http://www.espejoaeronautico.com/
The idea is to write the piece for a "Forgotten Conflicts" section that deals on wars that are little known to the general public but are nonetheless interesting. The piece will not only verse on the Grey's but also on the causes and consecuences of the Bush War in general.

I would very much would like to add some photographs, so I´m requesting permition to post some of the pictures that have been placed in this thread. Both the Society of the Military Horse and the original authors of the pictures will recibe full credit.

George

It certainly sounds like a worthwhile project. Let us know how we can help you in any way.

Regarding photographs, all the photographs in this source come, I think, from three sources. These are: 1) Cpt. Roy Elderkin. 2) Gary Snelling and 3) Eric Crepin Labond. Capt Elderkin and Mr. Snelling are veterans of the unit, and Mr. Labond is a participant here who posted some photographs with permission from a French military journal. As you know, there's a couple of threads that deal with action in other southern African nations, which have photos donated by other individuals.

All of the photos still belong to these gentlemen, who have graciously allowed us to post the photos. If any of these photos might be useful to you in your article (and I imagine they would be), I'd approach the owner for permission and the credit line. We've been lucky to put them up here, but we can't actually grant permission for third party use.

Pat

I have no objection, but the most informative photos, are Gary Snellings obviously he would have to give his permission.

Roy

Thanks Pat and Roy for the support. I'll contact Gary S for permition to reproduce some of his pictures.

Pat, how do I contact Eric from the Gazette des Armes?

Anobody know who owns this picture?
http://www.geocities.com/rhodesiansatwa ... cout1.jpeg

George

George

The photo is of me, so technicaly I own it, it was taken by the now defunct Rhodesian Army Information Service.

Roy

George

As a follow up, the horse is called Frazer, it was taken in 1976 as a PR exercise for Grey's and the Rhodesian Army, and went under the title of" Bearing Down". And the photo was taken at Grey's Barracks "Umgusa", Inkomo Garrison. Although I had the origanl photo, it formned part of the historical records of Grey's, a great many of those records were destroyed prior to Indipendance. It required the authority of Army HQ, the CO of Grey's who at the that time was Maj Tony Stevens, and myself to have it taken.

Roy

That is a very interesting action shot, and one I never saw before. What leapt out at me was the way the carbine was braced across the arm. Was this ever actually done in the field? The first thought that occurred to me was "that muzzle is awfully close to the horse's ears." or perhaps it just looks that way from the angle of the picture.

roy elderkin wrote:Pat

I have no objection, but the most informative photos, are Gary Snellings obviously he would have to give his permission.

Roy

Thanks Roy. We very much appreciate your participation, and that of others who have experienced military horse use first hand, and we want to make sure that we always note our appreciation, and seek to preserve for you your the property you and others have donated for our use. Your ongoing permission here is very generous, and we greatly appreciate it.

george seal wrote:Thanks Pat and Roy for the support. I'll contact Gary S for permition to reproduce some of his pictures.

Pat, how do I contact Eric from the Gazette des Armes?

Anobody know who owns this picture?
http://www.geocities.com/rhodesiansatwa ... cout1.jpeg

George

George, I'll send Eric a copy of this thread, and ask that he visit it and your query.

roy elderkin wrote:George

As a follow up, the horse is called Frazer, it was taken in 1976 as a PR exercise for Grey's and the Rhodesian Army, and went under the title of" Bearing Down". And the photo was taken at Grey's Barracks "Umgusa", Inkomo Garrison. Although I had the origanl photo, it formned part of the historical records of Grey's, a great many of those records were destroyed prior to Indipendance. It required the authority of Army HQ, the CO of Grey's who at the that time was Maj Tony Stevens, and myself to have it taken.

Roy

Roy, in that photo, you are riding a British type UP saddle. How is it that this saddle happened to be used for that photograph? Old saddle?

Pat

The photo was taken when the Regt was the MIU [Mounted Infatry Unit}. And it had just been designated the title Grey's Scouts in 1976, it was taken when we were being filmed for a documentary, by a German telivision Unit, they were going round filming the Rhodesian Army.

The saddle was the last remaining UP, and belonged to the BSAPolice, it was an original UP issued to the Police from the British Army. Shortly after this we recieved our first batch of Macks, it was a saddle I had been trained in, either in the Police or British Army so I was very comfortable in it.

In reply to Monique

The position I am taking is called a pre contact position or in military infantry jargon advance to contact. The object is to keep a low profile, before the contact occurs, then at the last moment you come up to the firing position above the head of the horse and to the side where the target is left or right.

We adopted this stance, and perfected it for the mounted soldier, should he need to fire from the horse, having come under fire from either ambush or an immediate contact situation, before dismounting to skirmish, or get out of the kill zone in an ambush.

We found after a few contacts that the enemy had a tendency to fire high, whether by instict or poor training, so by adopting this low profile, everything went over the top. Because we were able to bear down so quickly using the horses speed, the enemy did not have time to adjust their sights, before we were able to engage them.

There was one further photo where it shows me comeing up to the aimed position, I have been unable to find it, and may have lent it to someone and did not get it back.

Roy

roy elderkin wrote:Pat

The photo was taken when the Regt was the MIU [Mounted Infatry Unit}. And it had just been designated the title Grey's Scouts in 1976, it was taken when we were being filmed for a documentary, by a German telivision Unit, they were going round filming the Rhodesian Army.

The saddle was the last remaining UP, and belonged to the BSAPolice, it was an original UP issued to the Police from the British Army. Shortly after this we recieved our first batch of Macks, it was a saddle I had been trained in, either in the Police or British Army so I was very comfortable in it.

In reply to Monique

The position I am taking is called a pre contact position or in military infantry jargon advance to contact. The object is to keep a low profile, before the contact occurs, then at the last moment you come up to the firing position above the head of the horse and to the side where the target is left or right.

We adopted this stance, and perfected it for the mounted soldier, should he need to fire from the horse, having come under fire from either ambush or an immediate contact situation, before dismounting to skirmish, or get out of the kill zone in an ambush.

We found after a few contacts that the enemy had a tendency to fire high, whether by instict or poor training, so by adopting this low profile, everything went over the top. Because we were able to bear down so quickly using the horses speed, the enemy did not have time to adjust their sights, before we were able to engage them.

There was one further photo where it shows me comeing up to the aimed position, I have been unable to find it, and may have lent it to someone and did not get it back.

Roy

What you observed about enemy fire upon contact is very much what the Portuguese also observed in Angola. They trained their men to turn into surprise fire and charge into it, finding that it was nearly always so disruptive to the opposing troops to do that, that they rarely hit the mounted men or mount. Was that similar to your observations?

Pat

I think that it would be a very fair analysis of what occured during both conflicts. They could engage infantry on the ground, very well, but just did not understand mounted infantry or how to engage them.

They had two problems firstly the low profile taken by the rider, their shots always went high and sometimes quite wild. And secondly
the agressive turn of speed,the mounted soldier was capable of, and their ability to return fire rapidly before dismouting. This always took them by suprise, and judging by the comments of those captured they had never been taught how to react. They had very good training in all other aspects, but mounted soldiers this was lacking which was suprising. And even more of a suprise, when you consider that ZANLA Mugabe's faction were trained by China and equiped by them, they would have taught them how to engage mounted infantry, and the same would apply to Nkomo's ZIPRA, who were taught by the Russians and Romanians.


But there are not many armys who know how to combat mounted infantry, even in this modern era. But it was a blessing to us that, they never did learn, or our efectiveness would have diminished.

Roy

roy elderkin wrote:Pat

I think that it would be a very fair analysis of what occured during both conflicts. They could engage infantry on the ground, very well, but just did not understand mounted infantry or how to engage them.

They had two problems firstly the low profile taken by the rider, their shots always went high and sometimes quite wild. And secondly
the agressive turn of speed,the mounted soldier was capable of, and their ability to return fire rapidly before dismouting. This always took them by suprise, and judging by the comments of those captured they had never been taught how to react. They had very good training in all other aspects, but mounted soldiers this was lacking which was suprising. And even more of a suprise, when you consider that ZANLA Mugabe's faction were trained by China and equiped by them, they would have taught them how to engage mounted infantry, and the same would apply to Nkomo's ZIPRA, who were taught by the Russians and Romanians.


But there are not many armys who know how to combat mounted infantry, even in this modern era. But it was a blessing to us that, they never did learn, or our efectiveness would have diminished.

Roy

I've also seen some comments that most ground troops find facing a charging horse terrifying, even in the era of modern weapons. It's a frightening thing to see an animal as large as a horse headed for you, and hard to keep your head when that occurs. To an extent, I wonder if men facing that for the first time imagined that they were about to be run over, which would cause nearly any man to fire wildly.

Roy

Thank you for the explanation. IMO this is a very valuable and productive discussion, documenting and illuminating a little-known instance of modern mounted warfare and its evolving doctrine.

Roy,
What say you on this?
http://www.memoriesofrhodesia.com/pages/war/flower.html

If this has been brought up previously my apologies, there are so many pages to this thread now I could not devote the time to search it all.