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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:21 pm
by Gary S
Pat
You asked a question earlier about if the light coloured horses caused a problem on operations. Bluntly no!
Talking to captured CT's afterwards,they maintained grey horses were spirits, and could track them.
As we hardly ever initiated a contact, being ambushed the norm. As soon as the first shot was fired, the riders in the ambush zone would dismount pretty quick, and skirmish forward like a normal infantry unit. I don't think the light coloured horses were singled out. Our Troop never lost or had a horse wounded in action.
Normal routine patrols, the light coloured horses were never camouflaged, but if working at night, or going on an external mission, we put green vegetable colouring on the horses, as I did with my hair being blonde.
Gary
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:35 am
by Gary S
This is a picture of Trooper Darnie Darvel having a smoke break. Now when we stopped there were insects called Mapani flies which swarmed all over man or beast. Smoke kept them away. So you can see the horse has a cigarette as well. I really think it was a pose for the camera!!
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:35 am
by Pat Holscher
Gary S
This is a picture of Trooper Darnie Darvel having a smoke break. Now when we stopped there were insects called Mapani flies which swarmed all over man or beast. Smoke kept them away. So you can see the horse has a cigarette as well. I really think it was a pose for the camera!!
Pretty amusing photograph.
On the camouflage, the thought of green camo for a horse is a fairly startling thought!
Pat
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:48 am
by Pat Holscher
Originally posted by roy elderkin
Ryan
something which has occured to me, and in relation to the other thread that of the "Cavalry" stop.You asked how to develop a good seat, one of the techniques of developing this and dealing with fractious horses, that of bringing about a controlled collected halt, I have used it to either train my own horses, for dressage or dealing with untrained horses.
The technique, requires that you sit deep in the saddle, your hands holding the reins at the correct height and distance from the body , the shoulder is then closed ie the shoulder blades are brought together very hard so that they are almost touching. Now the human anatomy will do a number of things, firstly the back braces and drives the seat down into the saddle, secondly the legs are automaticaly drawn into the sides of the horse, thirdly the arms are drawn back to engage the bit. It creates a very powerfull hold on the horse, and at the same time the seat of the rider now has a a good base of support, and is very secure.
This technique although appearing harsh to begin with, controls the horse making it round its back and bringing about a controled collected halt, as the training is refined the rider can now be more subtle with the movement, and by merely closing the shoulder but not completely when you started, the horses will understand what is required and will halt with the unseen aid which you should work towards, and forms forms part of good horsemanship.
I hope that you understand all of this, it is difficult to explain by this medium but it does work, but it should be used with great care.
Roy
Thanks Roy.
Pat
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:01 pm
by Pat Holscher
Gary S.
This is a picture of Trooper Darnie Darvel having a smoke break. Now when we stopped there were insects called Mapani flies which swarmed all over man or beast. Smoke kept them away. So you can see the horse has a cigarette as well. I really think it was a pose for the camera!!
Pretty amusing photograph.
On the camouflage, the thought of green camo for a horse is a fairly startling thought!
Out of curiosity, is the pattern of cap here the same as the French Lizard cap?
Pat
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:04 pm
by Gary S
The first picture shows a race back to the vehicle for uplift to camp.
Second picture Crossing the Lundi river.
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:53 pm
by Pat Holscher
As a total aside, I noted that there was a television show on the other day in which a guide was giving a mounted tour of wildlife in Africa. I'm not sure where it was, as I caught only a bit of it, but he was using a McClellan saddle.
Pat
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:03 am
by roy elderkin
Pat
If it was Southern Africa, then it is not surprising as the area was awash with them after the war.Some were sent south during and after the war. Others were sold, on the black market after the war, when things were getting bad in Zimbabwe. Whilst a number were taken South, when the Selous were moved enmass from the country, prior to Independence for political reasons, and protection for former members of the Regt from reprisals.
Roy
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:57 pm
by Pat Holscher
Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat
If it was Southern Africa, then it is not surprising as the area was awash with them after the war.Some were sent south during and after the war. Others were sold, on the black market after the war, when things were getting bad in Zimbabwe. Whilst a number were taken South, when the Selous were moved enmass from the country, prior to Independence for political reasons, and protection for former members of the Regt from reprisals.
Roy
Very interesting Roy.
I think I may have mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I have a book somewhere by Bartle Bull on Safaris in which he's depicted riding a McClellan. I think this is also in South Africa.
Pat
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:51 am
by Pat Holscher
A recent question on the headgear of the Grey's was asked in the slouch hat thread, here:
Originally posted by max
new to site, great subject
Did the Rhodesian Grey's Scouts were a slouch hat? are there any sites with photos
cheers Max
I've bumped up some replies in that thread that relate to this question, but the topic is also address here. As can be seen, the style of headgear that we strongly associate with the Australians is not wholly unique to them, just as the style of hat we strongly associate with the American military of the M1911 type is not unique to it either. Some nice photos in this thread.
As also demonstrated, in the Grey's use, this hat had taken on a dress role at this time.
Pat
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:39 am
by max
(thanks Pat found Greys forum could not see the wood because of the trees)
Found an E-Book on
www.quikmaneuvers.com which covers the history tactics uniforms etc of Greys Scouts. As any read it yet? is it worth the download $25(never had e-book.) I imported a book from the US called "Major Mike" by Major Mike Williams it was to say the least a bit disapointing you did not get the feel of a mounted unit,NOW on the e-book there are 2 chapters on tactics by Maj Williams just worried the e-book will be like the book Major Mike
would like any input regarding e-book[?]
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:16 pm
by Pat Holscher
Originally posted by max
(thanks Pat found Greys forum could not see the wood because of the trees)
Found an E-Book on
http://www.quikmaneuvers.com which covers the history tactics uniforms etc of Greys Scouts. As any read it yet? is it worth the download $25(never had e-book.) I imported a book from the US called "Major Mike" by Major Mike Williams it was to say the least a bit disapointing you did not get the feel of a mounted unit,NOW on the e-book there are 2 chapters on tactics by Maj Williams just worried the e-book will be like the book Major Mike
would like any input regarding e-book[?]
I have no idea as to the answer to your question, but from what I've seen, the very best source of information on the Grey's is this thread.
On the book you note, I've never heard of it, but a net search indicates that the author was Robin Moore, with some sources indicating it was co-authored by Maj. Williams. The only Moore book I've ever read was "The Green Berets", which at that time (in my teens) I thought to be fairly mediocre. I note that he's also listed as the author of "The French Connection". I haven't read that, but I thought the film was okay. He's written quite a few others, I see.
Pat
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:47 pm
by bisley45
You can't judge a book by its movie.
Bisley 45
Don't sweat the petty things...and don't pet the sweaty things.
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:11 pm
by kerry savee
Max and Pat,
I read the Major Mike book last year and was sorely disappointed. I read page after page hoping to gain some insight into the field operations of Greys, or modern mounted infantry tactics, or cavalry training but the title says it all...... MAJOR MIKE!!
Kerry
<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:37 am
by roy elderkin
Kerry
I am afraid that you are going to search in vain, for the questions you ask. The secrets that Grey's had like SAS and Selous went with them. We are like the others reluctant to impart them, and after all these years will still not. Remember that most of Grey's still have connections in Zimbabwe, in one form or another and will not talk about it.
Having written most of the manual myself, I still would not impart that knowledge. As for this book that Pat has refered to I have not read it, so it would be improper to comment on it. But sufice it to say that even Mike Williams did not know all that there was to kinow.
Roy
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:21 am
by roy elderkin
Pat Kerry
May I clarify what I said previously. So that there is no ambiguity, in what I said. Prior to 1980 there was no written manual, all instructional techniques came from the instructors by word of mouth, and their knowledge. They were regarded then, as the best counter insergancy warfare soldiers in the World. This allied with other peoples knowledge with horses, made Grey's the most formidable Mounted Infantry Unit in modern times. We did not write down the training methods of the mounted aspect, there were reasons for this. Which I am not going to go into, on the Forum.
After 1980 all knowledge went with the instructors, and it is locked inside their heads as with many other things. I was asked to stay on and help retrain all former combatants, into the Zimbabwe Army's new Mounted Infantry Regt. I
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:38 am
by roy elderkin
I was then asked to create a training manual, which would then be translated into Shona and Endabele. It contained sufficiant data to be used by them, but not everything. That has never been written anywhere, once again I am sorry that I will not go into the reasons for this.
If you go through the Grey's thread you will find some of the answers that people seek, but not all. You will also notice, through contributions by other members of Grey's that no mention is made of tactics. Or other training techniques, and that is how it should be.
Roy
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:14 am
by kerry savee
Roy,
Thanks for replying to my post. I should have written it as a "quote with reply" to Max's post on the book by Major Mike Williams. The point of my post, as you no doubt recognized, was that the Major Mike book was short on substance and long on ego. I completely understand the reasons behind withholding tactical information especially considering the condition of Africa today.
My interests in such things is the same as most contributors to this forum: historical interest and the preservation of institutional knowledge (so that it doesn't have to be relearned over and over again, ad infinitum).
I think most of the contributors to this forum will agree that you, Roy, are a rare resource for all of us. You have done what we can only dream about.
Kerry
<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:20 am
by Pat Holscher
Originally posted by kerry savee
The point of my post, as you no doubt recognized, was that the Major Mike book was short on substance and long on ego.
Sort of sums up my view of Moore's book "The Green Berets" also, which resulted in the less awful, but not good, movie. Not one of John Wayne's best, in my view. Based on Mark's comment, I'll take it the book variant of The French Connection wasn't great either. Perhaps the okay film variant should be attributed to the acting abilities of Gene Hackman.
I haven't read any other work of Moore's, but I'd characterize The Green Berets as sort of being in the pulp fiction genre, which isn't really worth reading.
Pat
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:42 am
by max
With the formation of the Mounted Infantry Unit (Greys Scouts )were the "Goffles"(I use the term from Maj Mike book) mounted protection units disbanded or transfered over to Greys Scouts, over the last year what I have read regarding Protection troops they seem 2nd rate troops at best(the saints rli book)Mike Williams also states they had problems with drugs (dagga) seem a scary outfit to be with did you (Roy) ever work with these guys??
Have searched the net you are right this is the only site to cover Greys Scouts found SAS RLI Selous but NO Greys (you are a credit Roy)