Forums at The Military Horse

Reiter wrote:Thank you luigi for the link and this beautiful saddles! Yes, these saddle is a so called "Bocksattel". I didnt know that such saddles are still manufactured.

Horrido!

Nicole

Keine Ursache!

In searching a little through internet I found the Scafarda and other military saddles defined as "Swivel-treed saddles" (see for reference here http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99667): does it sound a bell to anybody?

Regards

luigi wrote:

Reiter wrote:Thank you luigi for the link and this beautiful saddles! Yes, these saddle is a so called "Bocksattel". I didnt know that such saddles are still manufactured.

Horrido!

Nicole

Keine Ursache!

In searching a little through internet I found the Scafarda and other military saddles defined as "Swivel-treed saddles" (see for reference here http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99667): does it sound a bell to anybody?

Regards

It seems to me that I've seen the "swivel tree" reference made to UP saddles. It's a bit of an odd term, as at least for most of them, there's no swivel.

I think that is intended to refer to a "suspended arch". That is, a saddle on which the rider doesn't sit on a solid tree which includes the bars. Here, the bars are separated, and the seat of the saddle attached to it, sitting above the bars. I suppose there's a degree of flex that's inherent in that.

This has been an interesting thread, and the incorporation of the Italian saddles has made it more so. It seems clear enough that all these saddles fit into a common saddle family, with examples being used all over Europe. The question, I suppose, is how large is the family, and what saddles are part of it?

Another guess could be as follow: in the western saddle, in the piquet (renaissance) saddle and in the "english saddle" along with most "working saddle" you seat actually "on" the bars only separated by rawhide and some stuffing material. On these saddles instead you seat on an "hammock" like seat, suspended form front arch to cantle so the hipbone could be seen as the actual "swivel"? Or has "swivel" something to do with this hammock like construction?


Regards

edit: I re-read Pat's comment: I suspect we are saing more or less the same...

1914 im Felde als Hauptmann und [?]adjudant, wahr. 1914. Photograph from German Bundesarchiv provided to Wikipedia Commons.

Interesting 1914 photograph.

Here is a foto of a German Armeesattel 89, which was used by the "Alte Armee" before and during Word War I. and later by the "Reichswehr" to febuary 1926 when the Armeesattel 25 was introduced.



Horrido!

Nicole

Reiter wrote:Here is a foto of a German Armeesattel 89, which was used by the "Alte Armee" before and during Word War I. and later by the "Reichswehr" to febuary 1926 when the Armeesattel 25 was introduced.



Horrido!

Nicole

What significant differences are there between this pattern and the 25?

Pat Holscher wrote:

Reiter wrote:Here is a foto of a German Armeesattel 89, which was used by the "Alte Armee" before and during Word War I. and later by the "Reichswehr" to febuary 1926 when the Armeesattel 25 was introduced.



Horrido!

Nicole

What significant differences are there between this pattern and the 25?

Interesting how fixed this pattern appears to have been by 1889. No way would I be able to tell the difference between this and a 25. Very nice to have a photo of one, thanks.

What significant differences are there between this pattern and the 25?

One difference between the Armeesattel 89 and 25 is the weight, so the nr. 25 has a smaller weight, because the tree of the saddle is from other ( lighter ) materials than nr. 89 had.
Also the buckels at the back are different than on 25 and on early saddles 89 was used a (felt-pad) "Filzunterlage" instead a "Leinenpolsterung".

But interesting is, that (notofficially) the Armeesattel 89 was used in small numbers until middle of the Thirties, because we were not able to produce enough of model 25 at that time.

All in all, the differences are not so big...

Horrido!

Nicole

Reiter wrote:

What significant differences are there between this pattern and the 25?

One difference between the Armeesattel 89 and 25 is the weight, so the nr. 25 has a smaller weight, because the tree of the saddle is from other ( lighter ) materials than nr. 89 had.
Also the buckels at the back are different than on 25 and on early saddles 89 was used a (felt-pad) "Filzunterlage" instead a "Leinenpolsterung".

But interesting is, that (notofficially) the Armeesattel 89 was used in small numbers until middle of the Thirties, because we were not able to produce enough of model 25 at that time.

All in all, the differences are not so big...

Horrido!

Nicole

I should have considered the factor of advances in materials in the tree.

What do these weigh? They look to be relatively heavy for a military saddle, but that's only based on appearances.

I cant tell about the weight of Armeesattel 89 because I dont have one at the moment. But here is an excerpt of a Verordnungsblatt by Reichswehrministerium, regarding the advantages of the Armeesattel 25, dated 02.02.1926:



Horrido!

Nicole

Reiter wrote:I cant tell about the weight of Armeesattel 89 because I dont have one at the moment. But here is an excerpt of a Verordnungsblatt by Reichswehrministerium, regarding the advantages of the Armeesattel 25, dated 02.02.1926:



Horrido!

Nicole

Thanks!

Reiter wrote:There was a third bock, the German saddle, Deutscher Sattel, and looks quite the same as this austrian bock.

I belive this saddle is a 99 M. (1899 pattern) saddle. I don't have the specification on that saddle so I'm completely sure. There's a 1935 packing regulation where 99 M is shown on page 50-51 and 68:
http://cskir.extra.hu/images/letoltes/s ... screen.pdf
It has an all-steel tree with hinged panels. I've been told that this was an artillery saddle but I can't be certain.

Thanks for the interesting link.

I belive this saddle is a 99 M. (1899 pattern) saddle.

Are you sure? I have seen some models of Austrian saddles of the K.u.K.-Kavallerie and it seems for me to be a "M 06". But maybe there are only small differences in materials or the tree.

Here are fotos I tooked in Vienna in the armymuseum, the ARSENAL.
I found the K.u.K.saddles and took the picture of the saddle for the officers:


Here the bridle:


And the saddle for the cavalry-troops:


Here my horse with the saddle and the bags (I dont know the correct model of the bags)


I have another Austrian-saddle too, that could be M 15, it has moveable bars.

What do you think? Is there a difference between Hungarian and Austrian saddles after 1918?

Horrido!

Nicole

luigi wrote:Another guess could be as follow: in the western saddle, in the piquet (renaissance) saddle and in the "english saddle" along with most "working saddle" you seat actually "on" the bars only separated by rawhide and some stuffing material. On these saddles instead you seat on an "hammock" like seat, suspended form front arch to cantle so the hipbone could be seen as the actual "swivel"? Or has "swivel" something to do with this hammock like construction?
Regards
edit: I re-read Pat's comment: I suspect we are saing more or less the same...

This refers to Pat's previous comment re swivel trees and UP saddles.
I showed several UP saddles on the UP forum with arches jointed to the trees..."swivel trees".
I will bump ome up to clarify the point,
John.M.

Heloo!!
I refresh this topic, cause i find it when i looking for bags for this saddle.
Austrian saddles has two kind of tree. Older pattern has wooden bars and "younger" has bars made of steel. I have this tree ( with steel bars) and i try to make some pictures for show:)

But i have a request if i can....
Dear Reiter, can You send me detailed pictures of your saddle bags?? And some dimensions too.
In polish cavalry in war wit Red Russia in 1920 many Austrian sadlles was in use. We have some saddle to make a copy, but stil looking for bags. Can You help me??

best regards!!

Lookie

PS. Forgive me my pur english:)

Hi Lookas,

I sent you a PM

Nicole

OOO Thank You:)

I send You an ansver in PM:)

Regards!!

Lookas wrote:OOO Thank You:)

I send You an ansver in PM:)

Regards!!

Guys, I'm sure you're not the only ones who have these questions, so please share with the rest of us!

In other topic i wrote about my serching for parts of prussian horse equipement. I think it better fits here, so back for this in this thread:)

In book "Kaiser's Army in Colour" i find a picutres of a Jeger zu Pferde wich was stationed in Poznań ( ger. Posen) - a City where starsts Uprising of Wielkopolska in december 1918. I think, horse equipement of this unit was using later in Wielkopolska cavalry.

Note the green cuffs, collar and stripes on the pants on the troopers uniform (right hand). Typical for Jaeger zu Pferde. The cut out on the helmet above the ear was retained in the WWI helmet for the Cavalry.

Tom